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Thread: Great looking instrument (harp guitar) on the flea

  1. #26
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Great looking instrument (harp guitar) on the flea

    To be pedantic (I'm pretty good at that), I've been told that the definition of a "zither" is an instrument where the strings do not extend off the soundbox -- no neck, no structure to raise the strings perpendicular to the soundbox (like a harp).

    Members of the zither family thus include both hammered and "Appalachian" dulcimers, Autoharps, psalteries, and the weird congeries of fretless and fretted "boxes" that proliferated a century ago: Marxophone, ukelin, dulceola, tremoloa, etc. Some have fretboards, some don't. Some are struck, some plucked, some bowed.

    And the piano and harpsichord are technically "zithers." Go figure that.

    The instrument in question is not a harp-guitar, by current general definition. A harp-guitar has a fretted guitar neck, and a structure holding unfretted strings, clear of the body. These strings are struck without any means of altering their pitch during play -- though of course their pitches may be altered by use of tuning mechanisms.

    Also, I'm not sure how "cittern" got into the discussion at all, except to the extent that the guitar is cittern-related.

    A harp-guitar is a fairly well-defined instrument, in current discussion. There are many examples of guitar-based instruments with more than the "normal" six courses of strings, single or doubled. A ten-course guitar, without the "harp" strings, wouldn't be a harp-guitar, a zither, or a cittern.

    At least that's my 2˘.
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  3. #27

    Default Re: Great looking instrument (harp guitar) on the flea

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post

    Members of the zither family thus include both hammered and "Appalachian" dulcimers, Autoharps, psalteries, and the weird congeries of fretless and fretted "boxes" that proliferated a century ago: Marxophone, ukelin, dulceola, tremoloa, etc. Some have fretboards, some don't. Some are struck, some plucked, some bowed.

    And the piano and harpsichord are technically "zithers." Go figure that.
    Exactly


    The instrument in question is not a harp-guitar, by current general definition. A harp-guitar has a fretted guitar neck, and a structure holding unfretted strings, clear of the body. These strings are struck without any means of altering their pitch during play -- though of course their pitches may be altered by use of tuning mechanisms.

    ...

    A harp-guitar is a fairly well-defined instrument, in current discussion. There are many examples of guitar-based instruments with more than the "normal" six courses of strings, single or doubled. A ten-course guitar, without the "harp" strings, wouldn't be a harp-guitar, a zither, or a cittern.
    I don't dispute that these are called "harp"-guitars as such - I'm disputing the efficacy/accuracy of calling them such. I personally use the term "harp-guitar" for such items as the Dyer, Style U, etc - because that's the name given them - but I call attention to the contradictions/inconsistencies. That's just me. I guess I'm picky about my harps and zithers

  4. #28
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Great looking instrument (harp guitar) on the flea

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    form and function often have little correlation (f style mandolin?).
    The scroll, as we all know, is a perfectly functional and visually pleasing attachment point for a strap. The point on the body helps steady against the leg when seated (as Mike Marshall will attest, in one of his videos). And the elaborate curls on the peghead.... um, give me a few minutes and I'll think of something.


    WAIT, I have it! It's because if fiddlers insist on a scroll up there, then we should get one too. It's just sideways.

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  6. #29

    Default Re: Great looking instrument (harp guitar) on the flea



    More form derived from function - harp scroll

    Click image for larger version. 

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  7. #30

    Default Re: Great looking instrument (harp guitar) on the flea

    Check this -

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    Looks like a harp (sounds like a zither)

    http://www.harpguitars.net/history/m...th-hg-3-08.htm

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    Default Re: Great looking instrument (harp guitar) on the flea

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

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    That's something all right! But where do you attach the strap?

  10. #32
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Great looking instrument (harp guitar) on the flea

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    Looks like a harp (sounds like a zither)
    Hah! Thanks for that... it's been years since I've seen that thing, and very cool to see it again. It always looked to me like it was about to fire the mandolin neck off like an arrow from a bow.

    If I was independently wealthy with money to burn, I'd commission a reproduction of that, just to put in the front parlor as a decoration. It wouldn't look out of place in our 1880's Victorian house. Someone had to be playing these things, back then...

  11. #33

    Default Re: Great looking instrument (harp guitar) on the flea

    It does look surreal -

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Btw, re: form/function - perhaps a comment or two might be appropriate in respect, regarding harp design/ornamentation: particularly with the wire harp which was prevalent in the Isles up until about 17th/18th C. - decorating with clan symbols and precious stones, carving fish into forepillar and dragon heads on the front of the neck was traditional. The scroll (on the red harp above) is unusually ornate, but this area of the neck behind the harmonic curve is typical for harpmakers to embellish (typically more understatedly) with stylized figuring. Deriving as it does from tradition - likely the design and ornamentation elements of ancient times had significant cultural meaning, and thus, function - even today, these elements have "function" in recalling earlier times. I don't want to trivialize these aspects, which I risk when throwing up images willy-nilly (BTW, I love Ms Heymann and that beautiful harp!)

    A couple of other thoughts-

    Re - guitars and harps: the two instruments obviously share some sonic/familial commonality, and as permutations and combination efforts historically have exemplified. There is a well-known adage with which guitar players will no doubt be familiar: "let the strings ring out like a harp." This is an example of how the sonic characteristic of harp (probably among the "purer" forms of stringed instruments aesthetically and historically) informs our consciousness, etc., as well as contributing to a general lack of distinction among stringed instruments ..

    Re: zithers. I've always heard and felt some aspect/quality of zither in a banjo (which of course, it is). I sometimes hear sounds over the radio that I can't distinguish between treble notes on a piano, or banjo - until I get closer to the radio or turn up the volume. Listening to Nick Spitzer's '89 interview with Jerry Garcia last night - I remember what Jerry said about transcribing Earl Scruggs from vinyl records - something I used to do fervently as well: when you slow it down to 16 rpm, the banjo sounds like bells - "bong, bong.." Another reason why I love to play piano rags on a banjo!

    Anyway...don't know why I mention all that here.. Oh well

    We'll be seeing many more examples of permutations - some called harp- and some called whachya-callit ...
    "What" is Chapman Stick, for example? I believe there is some efficacy in a very basic approach to organology: of course, we're familiar with "box." I'm also fond of referring to any/all my "axes" as stick. I think we should use only three categories: wood, mineral, and cat
    Last edited by catmandu2; Jul-03-2015 at 11:54am.

  12. #34
    totally amateur k0k0peli's Avatar
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    Default Re: Great looking instrument (harp guitar) on the flea

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    I'm also fond of referring to any/all my "axes" as stick. I think we should use only three categories: wood, mineral, and cat
    A cat stick? That would get hairy. And you omitted air instruments. IMHO the world contains a nearly infinite stock of air guitars.

    As for the taxonomy and homologated nomemclature of stringed instruments, I go by the rules:

    * lute: strings extend along fingerboard from body
    * harp: strings extend in open air from soundboard
    * zither: strings do not extend beyond soundboard
    * mutant: any combination of any of the above

    When a zither is product-named a violin-ukulele or ukelin, the marketer has gone too far. Might as well call a sitar a mandolin.
    Mandos: Coleman & Soviet ovals; Kay & Rogue A5's; Harmonia F2 & mandola
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  13. #35
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Great looking instrument (harp guitar) on the flea

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    ...I've always heard and felt some aspect/quality of zither in a banjo (which of course, it is)...
    Lost me there. Banjo has a neck, disqualifies it as a zither. There are the badly misnamed "zither banjos," which were British-made five-string banjos that often had six-string quasi-guitar necks, and where the fifth string, rather than being pegged at the side of the neck five frets from the nut, entered a "tunnel" at the fifth fret and was tuned from the headstock like the other strings.

    Zither banjo website.

    Doesn't it get a little Alice-In-Wonderland-Humpty-Dumpty-ish to categorize instruments by how we think they sound? Given the signal processing technologies available now, instruments can make a wide variety of sounds. I don't hear "zither" when I hear a banjo, but each person's ears are, to some extent, unique, and I wouldn't argue that others may hear differently. But if I choose to name instruments by "what I think they sound like," I may come up with nomenclature that's of limited use to others who don't hear things as I do.

    I've seen a zither-isn instrument, from a century ago, called a "Mandolin Guitar Harp," though it had few features of any of those instruments. It did make a sort of tremolo sound, which I guess was enough for the maker to use the term "mandolin" -- though I felt it was probably more to evoke the name of a then-popular instrument for commercial purposes. But to me it was a zither-family instrument, neither mandolin, guitar, nor harp, and I based my classification on its construction, rather than its sound.

    Just my 2˘.
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  15. #36

    Default Re: Great looking instrument (harp guitar) on the flea

    Quote Originally Posted by k0k0peli View Post
    A cat stick?
    I usually say vessel, stick, and cat ...

  16. #37

    Default Re: Great looking instrument (harp guitar) on the flea

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post
    Lost me there. Banjo has a neck, disqualifies it as a zither. There are the badly misnamed "zither banjos," which were British-made five-string banjos that often had six-string quasi-guitar necks, and where the fifth string, rather than being pegged at the side of the neck five frets from the nut, entered a "tunnel" at the fifth fret and was tuned from the headstock like the other strings.

    Zither banjo website.

    Doesn't it get a little Alice-In-Wonderland-Humpty-Dumpty-ish to categorize instruments by how we think they sound? Given the signal processing technologies available now, instruments can make a wide variety of sounds. I don't hear "zither" when I hear a banjo, but each person's ears are, to some extent, unique, and I wouldn't argue that others may hear differently. But if I choose to name instruments by "what I think they sound like," I may come up with nomenclature that's of limited use to others who don't hear things as I do.

    I've seen a zither-isn instrument, from a century ago, called a "Mandolin Guitar Harp," though it had few features of any of those instruments. It did make a sort of tremolo sound, which I guess was enough for the maker to use the term "mandolin" -- though I felt it was probably more to evoke the name of a then-popular instrument for commercial purposes. But to me it was a zither-family instrument, neither mandolin, guitar, nor harp, and I based my classification on its construction, rather than its sound.

    Just my 2˘.
    My most basic, and critical, criteria is the string/bridge (soundboard) aspect

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  18. #38
    totally amateur k0k0peli's Avatar
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    Default Re: Great looking instrument (harp guitar) on the flea

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post
    I based my classification on its construction, rather than its sound.
    Quite. I can raise the action on a Telecaster and tune it DGDGBE just like my Aloha lap steel. They're both labeled 'guitars' and they'll sound much the same when played similarly, but the Tele is a lute and the Aloha is a zither. A dulcitar / strumstick may play and sound rather like a mountain dulcimer but again we're mixing lutes and zithers. It gets weirder when we see all-electronic stringless lute-shaped axes and wonder what to call them. And (ObTopic) a harp-mandolin-shaped mando lacking the harp infrastructure ain't a harp no matter what someone calls it. But, as John Lennon said, "nothing is real / nothing to get hung about". Harp-mandos don't worry me.
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  20. #39

    Default Re: Great looking instrument (harp guitar) on the flea

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    My most basic, and critical, criteria is the string/bridge (soundboard) aspect
    = structural (from which the "sound" derives, most fundamentally)

    The "neck" and other structural elements concerning necks are mostly irrelevant, or certainly of minimal importance in comparison ..

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    Market Man Barry Wilson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Great looking instrument (harp guitar) on the flea

    Andy Mckee is where I first saw a harp guitar. I would love to have one to diddle around on

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  22. #41

    Default Re: Great looking instrument (harp guitar) on the flea

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post

    Doesn't it get a little Alice-In-Wonderland-Humpty-Dumpty-ish ..?
    It's too late, I think -

    Nomenclature and the way names derive is often a highly idiosyncratic process. Particularly concerning art (and the tools of exploring and rendering subjective, qualitative phenomena), the process of giving names to implements and processes seems reliant on myriad sociocultural factors (history, tradition, linguistics, etc) – here physics, science, and other “reasonable’/readily agreeable processes seem rarely to be the primary means by which we come to a consensus about nomenclature. Certainly geographic and social differences evince. It’s useful to implement a unit/template of measure/reference, of course – the European standard.

    By the same token, we often hear of fanciful, willy-nilly names to describe new technological devices and processes – all the hybrids taking over our lives - as “things” are always falling into gray areas and between cracks… soon we’ll have to give prefixes to everything: “printed/cloned this -” and “non-virtual that-“ … Oy.

    What *is* a guitar, anyway? I’m not a student of the history of musical instruments, but I’m aware that the Torres model was one of the first to derive from the vihuela – introducing increasingly rounder bouts and so forth. Lutes and vihuelas – in all their permutations over centuries - were essentially a “box” (vessel) with some manner of neck from which to hang some strings. The manner in which they “hang” – be it one string, two strings, or 54 strings…with or without a neck, etc - differs most fundamentally, in my experience, in their aspect to the soundboard (parallel v perpendicular). Lutes themselves have that nice zithery, medieval sound.

    More associations – the art of technology and its impact upon culture

    Where did these instruments come from? African instruments were gut or hide –strung: harps, lyres, lutes .. (metal strings are European, and so we naturally think - zithers have metal strings). A vessel (for resonance/amplification) with some sort of extended attachment (neck) to enable stretching some type of string arrangement – seems to have derived into what we call the lute-family. Increasingly more refined necks enabled greater control and distinction over pitches – and thus “advances*” in harmony and polyphony. It seems that absence of neck amounts to a lyre – generally, in my consciousness…

    In my experience, harps have a fuller, rounder tone than all the zithers and lutes (and guitars) that I’ve played - less inherently percussive, they pronounce and project the vibrating string itself, more, while the perpendicularly arranged zithers and lutes all seem to project percussive and other sound elements much more; I enjoy hearing the sound of my fingers on the strings – tapping, sliding, etc , on all my zither/lutes – alloy, nylon, and hybrid. My harps, on the other hand, - both alloy and nylon – do not register nor project "extraneous" sounds from contact of fingers on strings in an appreciable manner. There no doubt can be an explanation of this in acoustical physics. So, beyond name - for me there is a real and clear distinction between harps, zithers, lutes, and lyres - that can be heard by the ear and "explained" by well-established factors .

    Then comes gut/nylon - which smoothes/rounds out the sound – and our modern sensibilities (toward all things Western and the Grand Tradition) squares everything by how it “equates” with Western sensibility. Ergo, the “classical guitar ; the classical (orchestral) harp – both gut (or nylon) strung – both “legit” instruments, etc..

    If anything, the (style U) “harp”-guitars are really “lyre”- guitars … in that the free-standing strings insert into the bridge/soundboard parallelly

    Any way..



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    Last edited by catmandu2; Jul-05-2015 at 5:49pm.

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    Default Re: Great looking instrument (harp guitar) on the flea

    Wow. This has really become a Seinfeld episode of a thread - a chat about nothing. Well, maybe not exactly nothing, because Seinfeld episodes were always about something, if not always all that much. But this ... beginning with a misread of a misnomer, somehow stretched out for so long ... Well, as long as you all are having fun, don't let me stand in the way. Never mind. Have fun!

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  25. #43
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Great looking instrument (harp guitar) on the flea

    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

  26. #44

    Default Re: Great looking instrument (harp guitar) on the flea

    Quote Originally Posted by journeybear View Post
    Wow. This has really become a Seinfeld episode
    I couldn't say that I'm a television expert. I'll defer -

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    Default Re: Great looking instrument (harp guitar) on the flea

    Yah. Me too, me neither, whichever. 'Night.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

    Furthering Mandolin Consciousness

    Finders Keepers, my duo with the astoundingly talented and versatile Patti Rothberg. Our EP is finally done, and available! PM me, while they last!

  28. #46

    Default Re: Great looking instrument (harp guitar) on the flea

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post
    Lost me there. Banjo has a neck, disqualifies it as a zither...

    ...

    if I choose to name instruments by "what I think they sound like," I may come up with nomenclature that's of limited use to others who don't hear things as I do.

    I've seen a zither-isn instrument, from a century ago, called a "Mandolin Guitar Harp," though it had few features of any of those instruments. It did make a sort of tremolo sound, which I guess was enough for the maker to use the term "mandolin" -- though I felt it was probably more to evoke the name of a then-popular instrument for commercial purposes. But to me it was a zither-family instrument, neither mandolin, guitar, nor harp, and I based my classification on its construction, rather than its sound.
    What of all the zithers with necks? How about the "mountain dulcimer" - which derives rather directly from many permutations of European zither (dulcimer seems to be an American "catch-all" name given instruments of ambiguous derivation - a practice likely contributing greatly to the general problem at hand. For example, it seems early builders of 'hammered dulcimers" in the US, according info on Paul Gifford's site*) didn't call their instruments by this name - which is known by various other names outside of the US).

    Posters seem to have latched-on to what I wrote about the "sound" of instruments. But if you look up-thread I believe I stated repeatedly that the foremost factors (in classification) are structural. Structure determines sound most fundamentally. Nothing too outlandish there, I believe.

    If we lump everything together under common "American"-style parlance - without a critical eye - we run the risk of everyone just playing some sort of "guitar-thingie".. our instruments have a rich heritage that i Iike to honor - aside from it just making good sense; I'm just more compelled by other organizing principles, here - don't expect to others agree necessarily. A name is what it is ..

    *
    Last edited by catmandu2; Jul-06-2015 at 3:26pm.

  29. #47

    Default Re: Great looking instrument (harp guitar) on the flea

    I tried to tag this on my post above, but I just rather made a mess of it

    just one last thought

    I discovered, by putting something into words, something I'd never consciously realized, but only experienced and heard, before this thread: harps seem to be like exactly opposite of these others (lets say zithers and lutes and guitars, banjos etc) in a fundamental way: as I mentioned earlier, the harp seems to "absorb" percussive elements, while the "zither-rest" sort of amplify, if you will - by resonance, projection etc. - these percussives or sounds of attack, contact of fingers on strings, which of course are often desirable [as these are percussion/rhythm instruments.] - clawhammer/frailing banjo for example, other techniques used on these things for dance tempos rhythms and ornaments and devices... - register on the zithers.

    Well, no doubt well-known phenomena to the builder/scientist .. and obvious when considering the playing techniques and applications the instruments are used in. It's just fun when making a discovery in sort of round-about, backwards manner.

  30. #48
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Great looking instrument (harp guitar) on the flea

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    What of all the zithers with necks?
    Ain't none. Definition of a zither is "no neck" -- strings don't extend beyond the body.

    How about the "mountain dulcimer" - which derives rather directly from many permutations of European zither (dulcimer seems to be an American "catch-all" name given instruments of ambiguous derivation - a practice likely contributing greatly to the general problem at hand. For example, it seems early builders of 'hammered dulcimers" in the US, according info on Paul Gifford's site*) didn't call their instruments by this name - which is known by various other names outside of the US).
    In the US, "dulcimer" refers to two separate zither-family instruments, the "mountain," "Appalachian" or "lap" dulcimer which has a fretboard and is strummed, and the "hammered" dulcimer which is a large psaltery-style instrument struck with hammers. Relatives of the first are mainly found in Germany and Scandinavia, including the langleik, the scheitholt, the hummel, and the French épinette des vosges. Relatives of the second are found nearly world-wide, including the Middle East (santur), the Balkans (cymbalom), China (yangqin), Germany (hackbrett), etc. Hammered dulcimerists are fond of stating that their instrument is "the dulcimer mentioned in the Bible," which is probably true; he English of King James's era called their instrument "dulcimer," and translated the Greek symphonia as "dulcimer" in the Bible, though to the best of our knowledge the Greeks were referring to a type of bagpipe.

    Posters seem to have latched-on to what I wrote about the "sound" of instruments. But if you look up-thread I believe I stated repeatedly that the foremost factors (in classification) are structural. Structure determines sound most fundamentally. Nothing too outlandish there, I believe.
    Well, I'm still having a bit of trouble with "I've always heard and felt some aspect/quality of zither in a banjo (which of course, it is)," from Post #33. Construction-wise, I can't see how a banjo is a zither.

    If we lump everything together under common "American"-style parlance - without a critical eye - we run the risk of everyone just playing some sort of "guitar-thingie".. our instruments have a rich heritage that i Iike to honor - aside from it just making good sense; I'm just more compelled by other organizing principles, here - don't expect to others agree necessarily. A name is what it is ..
    But if we derive our taxonomy from our own (admittedly idiosyncratic) impressions as to what sounds like what, or is somehow related to what, or is historically derived from whatever else, we risk not having a common definitional language to discuss specific examples. We started out discussion whether a ten-course classical guitar was a "harp-guitar" or not, and in "common 'American'-style parlance," it isn't. Is it somehow like a harp-guitar? To some of us it is, to others it isn't. We can agree to disagree about the derivation, or the similarity in sound, playing style, or repertoire -- whether those factors place the instrument in question in a particular category.

    But if our discursive language is to have usefulness in providing generally-agreed-upon definitions, we have to adopt some classification criteria that don't rely on each person's individual perspective, but include "common denominator" factors which we can all accept.

    We have probably gone on much too long, interesting as this discussion is (to some of us!). So I'm going to withdraw. I don't feel Seinfeldian -- really think this was a thread about something, though maybe not so much about the guitar in question.
    Allen Hopkins
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    Natl Triolian Dobro mando
    Victoria b-back Merrill alumnm b-back
    H-O mandolinetto
    Stradolin Vega banjolin
    Sobell'dola Washburn b-back'dola
    Eastmn: 615'dola 805 m'cello
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  31. The following members say thank you to allenhopkins for this post:


  32. #49

    Default Re: Great looking instrument (harp guitar) on the flea

    Well I don't think I disagree with most of that Allen - I think your 1st paragraph basically affirms points that I've made. And your second paragraph - agree; we certainly do need common units of reference in order to communicate about stuff.

    "I've always heard and felt some aspect/quality of zither in a banjo (which of course, it is)" - The banjo, again, has zither-style structure - most essentially/where it most matters, but we've been through that and agree to disagree - (I don't quibble that the "definition" ordains that lutes have extended necks, and zithers don't [I think a lute is a type of zither; or zither a type of lute]- even though fundamentally flawed). On my affinity with the "sound" of instruments as part of a total evaluative perspective/process - I'm sure it comes from being a player of these instruments and "hearing what I'm seeing"; I think my ears have dictated the requisite further taxonomic refinement that my thoughts have followed ..

    Otherwise ..

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post
    Ain't none. Definition of a zither is "no neck" -- strings don't extend beyond the body.
    What are these? (granted, most might call the ones with extended necks - "lute" [or banjo, guitar, etc] - even though the sound difference, between those with neck and those with extended neck, is negligible by comparison [to string/soundboard aspect]. This of course amounts to what the whole discussion was about: definition vs practice/practical application)

    https://www.google.com/search?q=zith...g&ved=0CB0QsAQ


    Anyway, thanks for the chat. We'll call it a day then
    Last edited by catmandu2; Jul-06-2015 at 9:28pm.

  33. #50

    Default Re: Great looking instrument (harp guitar) on the flea

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post
    really think this was a thread about something, though maybe not so much about the guitar in question.
    I've thought about that guitar - and would love to play and study with it. But I'm soon brought back to my senses - I gave up nylon (and most other) style guitar several years ago when I took up the harp. This instrument is capable, I'm sure, of very evocative sounds, tunings and temperaments - but nylon is a different animal and pitches register quite discretely - requiring precision. My hands just aren't up to it these days. But I would love to talk with folks who might also find this compelling..

    * thought - so I like to play Charango - an instrument that's mostly a big headstock, a wide fingerboard, with an armadillo shell stuck on the end to produce resonance/volume. There are some instruments like sitar for example - where a resonating/amplification device is stuck on one (or both) ends of an elaborate "fingerboard" of some type...where the "stopping"/fingering area of the instrument is the elaborate/"fundamental" portion of the instrument - and a shell or a gourd or a cat whatever 's on hand - is stuck on the end for volume...no wonder I find banjo zithery..
    Last edited by catmandu2; Jul-07-2015 at 12:15am.

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