Collin Botts on Irish mandola

[M.Marmot]

I agree -- nice playing.

The foot (well, boot)-tapping might not be that loud for the audience -- it depends on where the mic recording the video was. If it was mounted on a mic stand, with a metal base, located on the stage, then it would pick up a lot more of the floor noise.

I started following this thread 'cuz, these days, I'm playing a 1921 Gibson H2 mandola, and I was keen to hear someone else play Irish Trad on a mandola. The only "Irish mandola" I'm aware of is the guy in Dervish, and he doesn't play much of the melodic content of the tunes (as is my goal) -- anybody know of anybody else that they could direct my ear towards?

I had the same problem a few years back - I had bought a mandola but could find very little in the way of people playing it ... this was in the dark day's of dial-up so the internet was not as 'flush' with videos and materials as it is now.

Either way, you'll be hard-pressed to find folks playing mandolas and not bouzouki ... not, i suppose, that they're totally incompatable ... or are they?

[Colin Lindsay]

Either way, you'll be hard-pressed to find folks playing mandolas and not bouzouki ... not, i suppose, that they're totally incompatable ... or are they?

Play both myself... I have a few of each, and play melody on all. I started playing melody on my first guitar and always preferred it to backing chords. I was never a fan of the frantic strumming that many do, whilst claiming that it’s ‘accompaniment’… I also play melody on Waldzither and cittern and prefer the tunes rather than the strummed chords. This one I recorded a while ago as a sound sample on Waldzither but kept it as I love the deep tone even if it tends to go out of tune quite easily.

https://soundcloud.com/corncrake/waldzither-sample

[DougC]

Play both myself... I have a few of each, and play melody on all. I started playing melody on my first guitar and always preferred it to backing chords. I was never a fan of the frantic strumming that many do, whilst claiming that it’s ‘accompaniment’… I also play melody on Waldzither and cittern and prefer the tunes rather than the strummed chords. This one I recorded a while ago as a sound sample on Waldzither but kept it as I love the deep tone even if it tends to go out of tune quite easily.

https://soundcloud.com/corncrake/waldzither-sample

Out on the Ocean Jig, well done. Now we are just gonna have to do it on mandola for everyone. So here it is people, if you play mandola do a video of some Irish tunes.

[CelticDude]

Sorry for jumping in a bit late on this, but I've been researching OM's, and encountered the idea that, for Irish music, you want a round-hole, flat-top OM, similar to what is said about mandolins. These videos handily refute that. And the fancy strap holder adds a certain something, although maybe it should be a Celtic knot instead?

[Bertram Henze]

...And the fancy strap holder adds a certain something, although maybe it should be a Celtic knot instead?

That fancy strap holder fits into Irish music because it goes with that transatlantic "borrowing" tradition Irish instrumentation has. A Celtic knot, OTOH, would look too pretentious, elvish, too much like something you'd sell to gullible tourists in Ireland, like a painted bodhran.

[Beanzy]

I'm trying to play it well, but those A-major reels are kickin' my butt.

I played a nice session on St Patrick's Day, in Lithuania of all places, with some musicians from Dublin who'd been flown there for the week by the Irish embassy. They were kinda buzzed about the mandola, and one guy said that he'd always thought that mandolas were more suitable than mandolins for trad. I wish I'd gotten around to finding out how much mandola (or who) he'd heard...

It's interesting because over here in England we seem to get the mandola (octave) a lot in folk, unless you go to Irish sessions where it's a mix. But the bazouki gets more airing back home.

[foldedpath]

That fancy strap holder fits into Irish music because it goes with that transatlantic "borrowing" tradition Irish instrumentation has. A Celtic knot, OTOH, would look too pretentious, elvish, too much like something you'd sell to gullible tourists in Ireland, like a painted bodhran.

(sniff, harrumph!)... I have what Weber calls a "Celtic Diamond" inlay on my Yellowstone F OM headstock.

I bought it used, and was glad it didn't come with the more common "Weber Knot" that's sorta half-Celtic and half fish, with the associated religious connotation (no need to discuss that here, it's just not my thing). I figured the strap hanger and pointy bits would help balance any Celtic tourist associations.


Anyway, I'm doing my best out here in the PNW to increase the F-hole archtop OM presence in Irish/Scottish sessions. It's a beautiful beast.

[Colin Lindsay]

A Celtic knot, OTOH, would look too pretentious, elvish, too much like something you'd sell to gullible tourists in Ireland, like a painted bodhran.

The guy who invented those must be laughing all the way to the bank...

[CelticDude]

Wow, no love for the Celtic Knot!?! I was in a band called Celtic Knots, so it has some good associations for me. Plus they're pretty and cool-looking. And they do go back to the Book of Kells, so they predate the Irish tourism by at least a few years.

AFA the scroll, I actually think it gives the instrument some character. I'm not a fan of the standard "onion on a stick" look of many OM's, although I'll probably end up with one (Crump and Nyberg are on my short list at the moment.) However the Webers are a bit out of my price range, and aren't quite the sound I'm looking for. Close though.

[foldedpath]

Wow, no love for the Celtic Knot!?! I was in a band called Celtic Knots, so it has some good associations for me. Plus they're pretty and cool-looking. And they do go back to the Book of Kells, so they predate the Irish tourism by at least a few years.

Celtic is a useful marketing term, and I'm guilty of using the term myself, to sell our duo wedding gig band that plays mostly Irish trad.

To the great unwashed of the general public, it means something like "Riverdance" and evokes images of fair-haired women posed in a field of green hills with the sea in the distance, holding a harp, looking wistful at the distant horizon. Look at any YouTube video of the "Celtic Women" performances for the worst of this.

The thing is, it's not just one music.

I started out with the gateway most people have here into Irish trad, and then my fiddler S.O. started pulling me sideways into Scottish music, and then I had to learn the difference between that and Cape Breton music, while still getting interested in what's going on over in Shetland, and down south in Brittany... and egads! It's a deep well! The music doesn't deserve being thrown under a single word like "Celtic."

Unless you have a band that you're trying to get gigs for, or sell your music under some generic label. And then, yeah... it's hard to avoid.

There are exceptions that bring really great music to the fore, like the "Celtic Colours" festival in Cape Breton. So it's not just black and white. You have to get immersed in the genre to know who is using the term (and the associated imagery like "Celtic knots") for crass commercialism vs. something authentic and interesting.

[Bertram Henze]

The Celtic knot has its place in the music...



...but that would not look good on me

Celtic is a useful marketing term...

The thing is, it's not just one music.

Isn't that true... In a session two weeks ago, a man came up to us and said nice music, and could we play something from Lord of the Rings? 'Celtic' seems to evoke much of the old Celts' modern image of wandering warriors wielding whacky weapons. There is that side to it, but there's even more of Bothy Band and Pogues - just try to picture Shane McGowan having a drink with a High King of Tara

[Beanzy]

Aye but so much is reimagined & reinvention you need to be careful about the sources;

[CelticDude]

Celtic is a useful marketing term, and I'm guilty of using the term myself, to sell our duo wedding gig band that plays mostly Irish trad.

To the great unwashed of the general public, it means something like "Riverdance" and evokes images of fair-haired women posed in a field of green hills with the sea in the distance, holding a harp, looking wistful at the distant horizon. Look at any YouTube video of the "Celtic Women" performances for the worst of this.

The thing is, it's not just one music.

I started out with the gateway most people have here into Irish trad, and then my fiddler S.O. started pulling me sideways into Scottish music, and then I had to learn the difference between that and Cape Breton music, while still getting interested in what's going on over in Shetland, and down south in Brittany... and egads! It's a deep well! The music doesn't deserve being thrown under a single word like "Celtic."

Unless you have a band that you're trying to get gigs for, or sell your music under some generic label. And then, yeah... it's hard to avoid.

There are exceptions that bring really great music to the fore, like the "Celtic Colours" festival in Cape Breton. So it's not just black and white. You have to get immersed in the genre to know who is using the term (and the associated imagery like "Celtic knots") for crass commercialism vs. something authentic and interesting.

Yes, Celtic has become a marketing term, and yes, I fought the whole Riverdance perception of Irish music for years. I'm quite glad that it's passed; one of the few times to celebrate our cultural ADHD.

However, Celtic is also an adjective that describes the Celts, a real people originating in Asia and inhabiting Central Europe into Great Britain and Ireland for centuries before the Romans pushed them out (and before becoming absorbed by other peoples). As you point out these folks spawned not one culture (musical and otherwise), but several. I just finished a book called Celtic Myths, dealing with Irish and Welsh mythology, a reminder of a Celtic land sometimes given short shrift (although my favourite band at the moment is Calan, from Wales.) Although focusing on ITM, I too play a fair amount of Scottish, as well as a variety of American tunes "inspired" by Irish and Scottish tunes. I'm also starting to learn the tunes of the afore-mentioned Calan, expanding my personal repertoire to another Celtic land.

We have a local college station that does folk music every weekday morning. The Tuesday show is Celtic Airs, and the host reminds us constantly that the Celtics lands are not just Ireland and Scotland, but also Wales, Brittany, and Galicia (I think he mentions a 6th that I'm blanking on at the moment.) The reminder isn't just verbal; he plays music of all these places (he's also the main impetus for concerts in the area.)

So I reject the notion that the term "Celtic" should not be used just because our corporate-consumer culture has coopted and bastardized it for profit. It would be hard to find a cool cultural movement that this hasn't happened to.

[Bertram Henze]

...the Celtics lands are not just Ireland and Scotland, but also Wales, Brittany, and Galicia (I think he mentions a 6th...

...Cornwall (Kernow)? and a 7th, the Isle of Man?
I agree that the word Celtic should remain in use, in the correct sense, accompanied by explanations what it means.

[Beanzy]

Not originating in Asia, they are thought to have indo-European origins, rising in an area based on the Hallstatt-La Tène and expanded mostly westwards from there. But the real centre of the origins was in that area north of the Alps that later contains the Germanic speaking tribes. What we have left is the outer margins or the furthest ripple of the original culture. There's also a lot of debate over how much expansion was of people and how much was of culture. They are referred to as a culture for that reason as there seems to be little genetic homogeneity. As usual it's not one thing there either. In university the term Celtic was only used for our overall degree course name and as soon as you began talking about anything in detail you were expected to be specific as things got muddy otherwise.

[CelticDude]

Bertram - Yes, Isle of Man is the one he mentions.

Beanzy - Yes, You are correct. My mistake. Some of the maps showing the Celtic origins do look to extend into Eurasia though.

[zoukboy]

Some of the posters on this thread might find this book of interest. Simon James is an archaeologist and he makes a compelling argument:

http://www.amazon.com/Atlantic-Celts...ds=celts+simon

[CelticDude]

Thanks. I'm always up for another book on the growing pile...

One of the Amazon recommended books is "Ancient Celts" by Barry Cunliffe. He's the author of the book I have, "Celtic World". Published in 1986, I expect my book is a bit dated. Reading both together will likely offer good information and differing perspectives.

[Bertram Henze]

"The Sea Kingdoms" by Alistair Moffat is my recommendation.

[CelticDude]

Thanks Bertram. As I said, you can never have too many books (or mandolins).

[Mike Anderson]

As for Galicia and Asturias, I recognized that immediately as a way to attract tourist dollars and sell "Celtic" music. The Celtiberians are a vanished people; all of Spain was Romanized early and often, then fell mostly under Moorish rule for centuries. The Galician language is recognized as a Romance language with no Celtic roots. The fact of any culture having bagpipes in its music in no way indicates "Celticness" either, or the Greeks and Tunisians would be Celts too.

Promotion of Galicia and Asturias as "Celtic" regions and cultures coincided precisely with the boom in all things "Celtic" in the 1990s. Whatever puts brass in your pocket I guess as long as it doesn't harm anyone, but it's pretty much a completely false construct.

It's much more accurate to speak of music in particular as being Scottish, Irish, Welsh, Breton, Atlantic Canadian, etc and that's what I do.

[Tavy]

Thanks for posting these: some really nice stuff there. Good to hear the melody come out strong too - rather than the usual "lets see how fast we can play these" versions!

[M.Marmot]

I do love me a good ol' Celtic polka, or mazurka if it's a monday.

[zoukboy]

Some of the posters on this thread might find this book of interest. Simon James is an archaeologist and he makes a compelling argument:

http://www.amazon.com/Atlantic-Celts...ds=celts+simon

This article might be of some interest here:

http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/...ad-invent-them

[Mike Anderson]

Yes, absolutely, everything she said. Leave the term "Celtic" to the creators of horrible synthesizer trash you find on Youtube. They can own it forever AFAIC.

This article might be of some interest here:

http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/...ad-invent-them