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Thread: Some makes and models of single mics please

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    Default Some makes and models of single mics please

    I was wondering what some specific brands and models folks know of that bluegrass bands use when they are using a single mic for everyone. Thanks.

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    Default Re: Some makes and models of single mics please

    AKG C 214 $399. Neumann TLM 102 $700, Audio-Technica AT2035 $149, Audio-Technica AT4040 $299, MXL 990 $99, Monoprice LDC $77, These are just a few of what's available. I have 2 of the MXL that have served quite well, though I am sure you can get better for more money, they get the job done.
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    Registered User msargent's Avatar
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    Default Re: Some makes and models of single mics please

    I would try three Audio-Technicas: AT4033, AT4040, and AT4047. Each are relatively the same price range (the 4047 being a bit more expensive) and have very different profiles from one another. The 33 has a good deal more cut and I've seen in used on stage in these situations quite often. The 4040 is a little more neutral. The 4047 is higher output and a good deal more bassy - I frequently use it in the studio with baritone voice, upright bass, electric bass cab, kick drum.

    The 4033 would be my top choice out of those three and I've used it as a room mic in plenty of recording situations. You might try all three at a music store (Guitar Center, etc.) to get a sense of the timbral flavors that they offer.

    I don't play bluegrass, but my folk band has gotten a lot of mileage out using two Audio-Technica ATM450s as group mics. I use them in a lot of situations and generally pack one wherever I go with sound work. (I work as a recording engineer for classical music as one of my "day jobs".) They're side-address, have great rejection, and are very small/durable.

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    Default Re: Some makes and models of single mics please

    This is a far more complex question than it first appears.

    Generalizations are always risky, but it is fair to say that moat true large diaphragm (1" and up) condenser mics are likely to prove quite difficult to use in live situations, except in the best of rooms and acoustic spaces. Those with variable patterns even more so, due to certain technical constraints. Rather than go though it all again, here's what I said in a previous post on this topic:

    There are a great many reasons why certain designs of microphones work in some applications and not others. Many of these reasons are not at all immediately obvious, and involve getting into some quite deep technical waters. You could summarize some of it by saying "best is not always better", in fact.... of the examples you give there, the U87 is a beautifully engineered microphone. The diaphragm, the circuit, the components, the head basket.. the lot... is first class. It has also had decades of refinement. I've got an old 'purple label' one one myself which is a super microphone.. in the studio... but as a live mic? Many of the things that make it great in the studio count against it "live. The variable patterns - very useful, but also result in the off-axis rejection and pickup pattern linearity being inferior to many simple "fixed" microphones. This does not matter so much in a controlled environment, but on stage, with "wash" and reflections everywhere - it does. Likewise, the very good S/N ratio and low self-noise is important for recording - but pretty much irrelevant via a PA. The AT4033 is usually thought of as a "LD condenser" - but it is no such thing. It only looks like a LD condenser... it is actually a small/medium diaphragm electret (11.5mm/ 0.45")... and though quite a bit technically "inferior" to a true LD condenser (such as the U87), in some situations, those 'inferiorities' can make them easier to use in some situations. It also has quite a high self noise figure, but the pickup pattern is well controlled (easier to achieve with a smaller, single fixed vs. dual diaphragm), and in addition, the way the diaphragm moves in response to sounds is also different than a very fine quality 'true' LD condenser - as such it might seem "better" than a U87 (or a 4050) live. In (very) general terms the self-polarized electret backplates are quite a bit thicker than those found on high quality 'true' condensers and this affects a) their transient response and b) high frequency handling. The very best electrets are not truly "inferior", but they do have different properties, and those properties might prove advantageous in some applications. All of these factors (and a few others) coincide in 'Gain Before Feedback' which is not so much to do with sensitivity but rather, performance in a closed loop. Two of biggest factors in that area are the linearity of the pickup pattern and off-axis rejection capabilities, and here it can often be the case that a very simple, technically "inferior" mic to a top class "studio" mic can turn in a more manageable performance, and frankly, through a PA (even the very best of them) any other deficiencies are not going to be heard. One very reasonably priced (and good looking) mic that people might like to try out in that situation is the Blue Spark. It too is a small/medium diaphragm design, and it also has a well controlled pickup pattern with decent off-axis rejection - quite similar to the AT 4033. In the end, what works, works... and how it works is probably only of interest to geeks..

    The ATM450's are an excellent mic too. They are in fact a small-diaphragm back-electret, too.

    One of the issues here is that many folks like the LOOK of a big 'old mic sitting there.... so often rule out what would be the better choices technically! This perception is kind of like believing than an F-style mandolin sounds better than an A-model...a lot of people believe, similarly, that a big microphone will sound better than a little one
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    Default Re: Some makes and models of single mics please

    For all the reasons above, I think the AT 4033 might be the most commonly used microphone for the single mic bluegrass setup. And since they've been around a long while, and quite popular, they are easily available in the used market at very reasonable prices. And if you change your mind, they are easy to sell and get most or all of your costs back. It's a great advantage of a 'classic' mic in my opinion.

    I have no experience with the Blue Spark (mentioned in previous post) but I will say, that is one conspicuous microphone. 'Unobtrusive' is not a word that comes to mind!

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    Default Re: Some makes and models of single mics please

    Quote Originally Posted by BradKlein View Post
    I have no experience with the Blue Spark (mentioned in previous post) but I will say, that is one conspicuous microphone. 'Unobtrusive' is not a word that comes to mind!

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    Quite true. They are hard to lose (or not notice), that's for sure. They are like one of those orange distress beacons

    Good little mic, however. I got one as a freebie, but was very impressed with it both for recording and when I tried it in the "single mic" role. Some people seem to like mics that are "in your face", and they certainly are that.
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    Default Re: Some makes and models of single mics please

    My fav is the Shure KSM44
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    Default Re: Some makes and models of single mics please

    I have good experiences with the Audix SCX25A.
    Even though it reads "large diaphragm" on the website, it has a one-inch capsule, better against feedback, as almeriastrings explained before. I purchased a pair originally for the piano, can put them under the closed lid, they have VERY little proximity effect (the boomyness when you come very close) and a nice controlled off-axis frequency curve.
    Plus, it looks cool, musicians feel treated well when you put it up, which, in turn, might make them play better....

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    Default Re: Some makes and models of single mics please

    I use the AT4033, but I think it's important to point out that unless you have the knowledge and/or equipment to control these mics, none are going live up to your expectations. I found that a quality pre-amp is pretty important as well as a feedback control system. Some guys like to use feedback suppressors, but I favor a 31 band equalizer to notch out the potential problem frequencies. If you're going to go with one of these mics, find a sound guy who uses one regularly, and pick his brain on set-up, etc. These types of mics aren't exactly plug and play…you will need some expertise on them.

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    Default Re: Some makes and models of single mics please

    I agree with the comments about the 1" large diaphraim condensers. Without experience they can be difficult to control. I used a AT 4047 for several years with much success, but after much trial and error. I only used a AT 4033 one time and it was a feedback nightmare. However, I've used a MXL990 for several years with two different bands and seldom ever have feedback issues and get consistently good sound. It's cheap and works great. I would highly recommend it for live use. Surely there are better mics for studio but the 990 is hard to beat on stage.
    Also, I have never used either a feedback suppressor or a EQ. Just the mic into a mixing board using the tone controls on the board.

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    Default Re: Some makes and models of single mics please

    I won't say it can't be done, but as I said before, with the right controls, it can be a magnificent thing. I play at a few festivals where this is done with impressive results. I also do sound at a couple, and I can get plenty of volume with the proper feedback control. But to just plug it in, and turn it up until it almost squeals, most of the time will not produce the desired results.

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    Registered User mandobassman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Some makes and models of single mics please

    Quote Originally Posted by fredfrank View Post
    I won't say it can't be done, but as I said before, with the right controls, it can be a magnificent thing. I play at a few festivals where this is done with impressive results. I also do sound at a couple, and I can get plenty of volume with the proper feedback control. But to just plug it in, and turn it up until it almost squeals, most of the time will not produce the desired results.
    Fred, I just don't understand these general comments that tell people it can't be done. I have been playing in 2 bands for the past 10 years, both using the MXL990 with incredible results. Virtually never have feedback. We have a Yahama 12 channel self powered mixer and the 990. We have another Lg diaphragm condenser that we use for the banjo/ dobro (can't remember which model), and a MXL991 for mandolin. We play lots of large venues at weddings and monthly we play a small restaurant, which is very noisy. We never have feedback and are complimented all the time on the quality of our sound.
    My personal opinion is that many of the issues people have with feedback is because many of the high end and much more expensive studio mics that are used are highly sensitive, especially in the higher frequencies, and are much more prone to feedback than the MXL is. The last time we were in a situation where the guy who has the MXL mics was late and we were forced to use the AT4033, we ended up with nothing but feedback. When he arrived we plugged in the 990 and all was well again. However I also played in another band that used a 6 channel mixer, a Peavey power amp and one AT4047. Just one mic for a 6-piece band and great sound and no feedback. The only time I ever tried to use a feedback suppressor it caused more problems than it was worth and we ended up not using it.
    Using the more expensive mics can work, but as you say, it often requires additional equipment to make it work right, not to mention some experience. But, it can be done with the MXL990 very easily, cheap, and with amazing results
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    Default Re: Some makes and models of single mics please

    The key reason the MXL 990 often works where others may not:

    "The MXL 990 is a small-diaphragm, fixed-cardioid, transformerless FET condenser with an externally-biased 17mm gold diaphragm (in a 22mm-diameter capsule).

    Read more: http://recordinghacks.com/microphone...#ixzz3ei3bSApP

    That is exactly the same diaphragm size as in the MXL 603 and your 991.

    The only thing that is larger with the 990 is the outer casing.

    Regarding feedback suppressors, these are highly effective and can be extremely transparent. You have to spend some time with them, though, as setup is critical. There is always a very specific sequence you need to follow when "priming" them for live use. Oh, and avoid cheap ones like the plague as they will kill your sound along with any feedback. The good ones do a great job if set up right.
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    F5G & MD305 Astro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Some makes and models of single mics please

    OK can I ask then which budget mic of this type to go with ? Blue Spark($200) vs MXL990($100). Or another ? Does the Blue Spark sound/work better or have less feedback?

    We are a band of 4 and want to try the one mic thing as well.We have 3 singers--one on low volume finger roll banjo, one on mando, and one on guitar. The cajon player sits behind us and provides occasional whoops and hollars. He may mic his cajon separate at times.

    To make things worse, we are all techno zeros when it comes to sound set up. We do ok with a budget PA hand me down put together, but we really dont know what we're doing past plugging in and hoping for no feedback.

    We want to try out the one mic dance, but we are saving for a real PA (thanks to this forum, I want us to get the QSC K-10 and that i16 digital soundcraft mixer you've been talking about). So we are putting half our gig money towards a new PA because our powered harbinger speakers sound like do-do.

    So mostly we need a mic that is more idiot proof and feedback resistant as we play bars and outdoors at times. We are currently using the shure 58's or similar and they work fine. Just wanted to play with the one mic thing to see how it goes.

    So do you have a specific suggestion for hacks like us other than forget the whole idea? We really do play in a lot of noise at times.

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    Default Re: Some makes and models of single mics please

    We have had good luck with the Ear Trumpet Labs "Louise" microphone. Here is a video of Billy Strings and I at the Albino Skunk Fest last year in Greer S.C. The audio is direct from the mic.

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    Default Re: Some makes and models of single mics please

    The AKG C 1000 MK4 does a good job on instruments and voice .
    http://www.sweetwater.com/store/deta...FYY9gQods8kAuw
    Then the stand by Shure SM57 and SM 58 are tough and very road worthy in that they take a licking and keep on ticking ...... R/
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    Registered User almeriastrings's Avatar
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    Default Re: Some makes and models of single mics please

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    To make things worse, we are all techno zeros when it comes to sound set up. We do ok with a budget PA hand me down put together, but we really dont know what we're doing past plugging in and hoping for no feedback....

    So mostly we need a mic that is more idiot proof and feedback resistant as we play bars and outdoors at times.

    We really do play in a lot of noise at times.
    Put it this way... it is not easy

    So much depends on the space you are trying to use them in. They are actually easier to use on a large, open, festival stage (fewer reflections bouncing around, less ambient noise close to them) than in a small, tight bar with loads of background noise, hard walls and reflections coming in from all angles. They are also 'challenging' for person on the desk, in that they can require quite a bit of careful EQ and use of anti-feedback filters, for example. You really have to watch levels and speaker positioning is critical, especially any monitors.

    By all means - give it go, as it is interesting, as you will learn a lot about live sound. I would probably not spend too much to start out with, however, and always have a 'Plan B'.

    The MXL 990 is certainly a decent place to start.

    We have had a few interesting discussions on this topic. Worth perusing.

    http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...pet-Microphone

    http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?113623

    Good luck! Let us know how you get on.
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    Registered User Pete Martin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Some makes and models of single mics please

    Also the smaller the ensemble the easier. With 4 or more folks you need to rehearse and record and adjust. You can tell the pro bands that still use that setup. They work a LOT on this.

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    Registered User Jon Hall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Some makes and models of single mics please

    Do any of you have experience using a "group" microphone with a Bose L1 Model II system with a single B2 bass package? Which microphones would you recommend for this system? We are only using this PA for vocals and a fiddle. The other instruments are being amped.

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    Default Re: Some makes and models of single mics please

    @Jon: I think that many of the mics described above would work well. If it were me, my main concern would be really working to dial in an EQ setting on your unit.

    If the mic is to be occasionally used as a standard vocal mic in this setting (singers stepping right up to the mic), you might even consider a handheld condenser, such as a Shure Beta 87A, which could double relatively well as a vocal mic or handle a small group of instruments/voices.

    As I mentioned above, my band does really well with two Audio-Technica back-electret small condensers (ATM450) spaced out on the stage, which we use as all-purpose coverage for mandolin, violin, accordion, flute, and vocals.

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    Registered User almeriastrings's Avatar
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    Default Re: Some makes and models of single mics please

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Hall View Post
    Do any of you have experience using a "group" microphone with a Bose L1 Model II system with a single B2 bass package? Which microphones would you recommend for this system? We are only using this PA for vocals and a fiddle. The other instruments are being amped.
    I have used them with the LD Maui towers, which are essentially the same concept as the Bose L1's (compact line array).

    The issue here is slightly different than with a standard FOH/Monitor based system.... it can be better... can be worse... depending. There are lot of variables in play, and as usual, the room/stage is a big part of how it might work. The Bose has extremely wide dispersion, and while this means you (on stage) can hear it clearly, and the audience can hear it clearly... so so can the microphone. That means feedback. I use condenser mics all the time with these systems, but for individual vocal mics and spot instrument mics (usually Rode M2's - tight hypercardiod, Shure SM94's - well controled cardiod and ATM350's - cardiod clip ons), and position the towers off to the side in the 'null' spot of the main vocal mics. I can get really good levels with minimal bleed like that. So much is going to depend on the sound stage and local acoustic conditions. There is no one mic that is guaranteed to work everywhere with these setups.

    One mic not mentioned that I have used with some success, is the relatively little-known Shure Beta 27

    Although a true LD condenser (1" diaphragm) this mic was designed and engineered with live use in mind. Although hypercardiod, the frontal 'pick up zone' is wider than a similarly specc'd SD model, while retaining the very steep off-axis properties, so it is not quite like working in front of a 'rifle' type mic... the area in front is certainly wide enough for a duo... though if you have 5 or 6 people I suspect you'd lose those at the sides pretty easily. Never tried it like that, however. Might be worthy hiring one or borrowing one to see how it works for you. I can make ours work fine in a reasonably decent acoustic environment, but it is still "no go" in a really bad room.

    More on this mic.


    A previous thread from when I first got it, with some photos and (studio) sound samples.
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