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Thread: Advantages/Disadvantages of Notation (not Mandolin Specific)

  1. #51

    Default Re: Advantages/Disadvantages of Notation (not Mandolin Specific)

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    I also do not think tab can do anything that staff notation cannot do, if fingering and string markings are used. Then you know where to put the fingers in addition to the pitch, rhythm, phrasing and dynamics normally included in staff notation.
    That may be . . but written text (text scores) can express everything that staff notation can and more, as long as you know all the terminology. And a recording can express everything that text can and much more if you have a good ear.

    . . . Actually, I just realized that [EDIT: my previous statement, not DavidKOS's] is not true. A performance recording can't convey what does and doesn't happen by chance or what is improvised . . . unless the performer explains it.

    I don't really have a point. Just thinking out loud. And maybe trying to get the thread back on the original topic.
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  3. #52
    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Advantages/Disadvantages of Notation (not Mandolin Specific)

    Quote Originally Posted by objectsession View Post
    That may be . . but written text (text scores) can express everything that staff notation can and more, as long as you know all the terminology. And a recording can express everything that text can and much more if you have a good ear.

    . . . Actually, I just realized that's not true. A performance recording can't convey what does and doesn't happen by chance or what is improvised . . . unless the performer explains it.
    Actually, it's not true for multiple reasons. Importantly, a good deal of the "terminology" (annotation) is not even standardized in what we like to call "standard" notation. In contrast to the basic notes, things like pick direction, left-hand fingering, hammers-on/pulls-offs, tremolo (there are several types!), have no single, unique way of being annotated. They have multiple ways, and in some cases, these things are not indicated at all. In others, some notation borrowed from the violin is used -- but intended in a different way. Many classical mandolin scores from Italy or Germany differ significantly in their usage of annotation.

    The fact is that NEITHER tab NOR "standard" notation are able to convey all the information needed to make a musical piece sound "right" to most ears. If that were true, one could program a computer to play a piece by strictly following the written instructions on the page. And we all know how stilted and artificial music programs that play such pieces sound, whether they work from tab or notation! They never sound like a recording by a human player. It's not merely the fact that they're using synthesized waveforms, either, instead of real instruments. That's not the main problem. The timing always sounds all wrong, but in fairly subtle ways. The pieces don't breathe. The beat emphasis is all wrong. They don't seem to adhere to any of the playing conventions of the genre (like jazz, or classical, or the many different types of folk music, like ITM or bluegrass or oldtime). And so on.

    One is forced to concede that there is something more to music than standard notation is able to convey. We must conclude that notation is therefore incomplete. And tab is incomplete, as well. And these types of notation are incomplete in different, but overlapping, ways.

    Notation is useful. And so is tab! But neither one is a substitute for human playing and human interpretation. One could do MIDI capture of a performance, and generate yet another type of musical notation (a digital MIDI record, that is), and that would note closely resemble the desired result. And perhaps, in a generation from now, both notation and tab will be superseded by an improved notation.

    In the days before recording technology, that is to say for most of modern human history (!), some kind of musical notation (as limited as it is!) was the ONLY practical way to convey music to others -- except by example in live performance, that is. But all the best musicians learned mainly by listening to other musicians play. This is STILL true. But with the ready availability of digital recordings, it is less and less necessary to rely upon written notation alone to convey how to play a piece. Even the best classical virtuosos rarely work just from written scores: they listen to lots and lots of recordings, and they attend lots of live performances.

    Many people have pointed out in this thread that ear training is essential, and that no notation (standard or tab) is a substitute for it. They're right. Both notation and tab will only take you so far.

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  5. #53

    Default Re: Advantages/Disadvantages of Notation (not Mandolin Specific)

    sblock, I agree with most of what you're saying, but I should have been more clear in my post: when I said "Actually, I just realized that's not true", I was just referring to my statement "a recording can express everything that text can", not what DavidKOS said.

    Recordings can be very valuable, but I would hope that some people including (and especially) classical virtuosos are presenting music for the first time, either live or on recording. Plus, there's reinterpretation of older pieces, which may not be possible without a score. I think there are probably a lot of comparisons that could be made to orality and literacy (see Walter Ong's Orality and Literacy) and their effects on communities . . . but I don't know enough about that to really comment.
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    Default Re: Advantages/Disadvantages of Notation (not Mandolin Specific)

    You guys have a point, though - any form of notation supposes the performer understands the musical style involced.

    I also agree no form of notation conveys all the information of the actual music as it is played, like live or on recordings.

    No more than a script is a play. It's the information to perform a play.

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    Default Re: Advantages/Disadvantages of Notation (not Mandolin Specific)

    Quote Originally Posted by dang View Post
    I am surprised that no one has brought up the comments from the liner notes on Goat Rodeo sessions:

    "The music kinda wrote itself," says Thile in the studio's kitchen (where a hand-written sign reads "If Yo-Yo ain't happy, ain't nobody happy!"). "It was a matter of finding the center of what all of us could do. Yo-Yo doesn't improvise, and Stuart doesn't really read music. So it was kind of easy given the boundaries we had—while also trying to make it sound like it didn't have any boundaries at all.”
    .
    What they did and do and can do has absolutely no bearing on what I can do and need to learn to do. I will never be in a position similar to theirs, and if I were, I would do what ever it takes.
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    Default Re: Advantages/Disadvantages of Notation (not Mandolin Specific)

    Quote Originally Posted by sblock View Post
    But all the best musicians learned mainly by listening to other musicians play. This is STILL true.
    The truth of this should not be interpreted to mean you don't need to learn to read music. It just means that you have to be able to learn by ear.

    But with the ready availability of digital recordings, it is less and less necessary to rely upon written notation alone to convey how to play a piece.
    Most of the worlds music has not been recorded. If you can't read, there is an ocean of music unavailable to you. (Unless you pay someone to play it for you.)

    Many people have pointed out in this thread that ear training is essential, and that no notation (standard or tab) is a substitute for it. They're right. Both notation and tab will only take you so far.
    While that is true, it ignores the fact that not being able to read will only take you so far. Everything you don't know limits you.


    And I am entirely insensitive to the argument that so and so amazing artist and thus and so prodigal genius never learned to read. Most of us are not genetic anomalies or even amazing talents. What they do has as little to do with me as Dale Earnhardt Jr driving tips would on my morning drive to work.

    Most of us would benefit greatly by learning to read, by getting better at learning by ear, and by picking up the beer tab at the jam now and then.
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    Default Re: Advantages/Disadvantages of Notation (not Mandolin Specific)

    Most of the world's music hasn't been transcribed either.
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    Default Re: Advantages/Disadvantages of Notation (not Mandolin Specific)

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve L View Post
    Most of the world's music hasn't been transcribed either.
    Well that's true too, but not much of the worlds not as yet transcribed music has been recorded.
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    Default Re: Advantages/Disadvantages of Notation (not Mandolin Specific)

    Standard music notation is adequate to document music suitable for standard music notation. (Yes, circular reasoning!) Standard music notation is NOT adequate to document much of the non-Western world's music, as early ethnomusicologists painfully learned. That's why they started schlepping massive primitive recording equipment to miserably distant lands. Such was the only way to adequately capture the music.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    You guys have a point, though - any form of notation supposes the performer understands the musical style involced.

    I also agree no form of notation conveys all the information of the actual music as it is played, like live or on recordings.

    No more than a script is a play. It's the information to perform a play.
    Any music notation has two distinct purposes, descriptive and prescriptive: to document what was played (description), and to instruct what and how to play (prescription). Strictly oral music cultures have no use for the latter, any more than oral literatures require writing. Written records (notation) of oral cultures need to show their variability -- the creativity of "the folk process". Notation can be helpful but it's just a map of what has been or will be played or said or done. "The map is not the territory." The notation is not the gesture.
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    Default Re: Advantages/Disadvantages of Notation (not Mandolin Specific)

    Quote Originally Posted by k0k0peli View Post
    Notation can be helpful but it's just a map of what has been or will be played or said or done. "The map is not the territory." The notation is not the gesture.
    I like to say that if you roll up a piece of sheet music and stick it in your ear you do not hear the music it contains.
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    Default Re: Advantages/Disadvantages of Notation (not Mandolin Specific)

    Quote Originally Posted by k0k0peli View Post
    Strictly oral music cultures have no use for the latter, any more than oral literatures require writing.
    While this is absolutely true, I don't live or play music in one of those cultures. In the culture(s) I cull my musical sustenance from, a ton of music would go unplayed were it not for notation.
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    The earlier discussion about teaching tab or notation reminded me that when I took bass lessons years ago I couldn't find a teacher who could read standard.

    I now make sure all my students learn to read even though my reading is weak. I don't start with it: we start with playing. But after a while we start. Some students love it. Others struggle. But all benefit. And all think it marvellous when I put a piece of music they've not heard down and they are able to play it.
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    Default Re: Advantages/Disadvantages of Notation (not Mandolin Specific)

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    The truth of this should not be interpreted to mean you don't need to learn to read music. It just means that you have to be able to learn by ear.
    Yes, yes, yes! I entirely agree with that!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    Most of the worlds music has not been recorded. If you can't read, there is an ocean of music unavailable to you. (Unless you pay someone to play it for you.)
    At the same time, most of the world's music has not been put into standard notation, either!! Or tab, for that matter. And when it comes to folk music, jazz, and other genres -- almost anything besides classical music, in fact -- I'd wager you that there are a while more recordings of tunes than available sheet music.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    While that is true, it ignores the fact that not being able to read will only take you so far. Everything you don't know limits you.
    Amen to that!! Learn to play by ear. Learn to read standard notation. Learn to read tab. Learn, learn, learn. And don't put down people who know how to do some, but not all, of these things. If you can't read notation, you won't go very far in playing most of the classical music repertoire for violin. If you can't read tab, you won't go far in playing the sheet music available for bluegrass banjo. As for the mandolin, there is a lot of sheet music out there available for BOTH tab and standard notation formats (and not necessarily in both).

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    Most of us would benefit greatly by learning to read, by getting better at learning by ear, and by picking up the beer tab at the jam now and then.
    You said it. Amen to that, too.

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    Default Re: Advantages/Disadvantages of Notation (not Mandolin Specific)

    I always come back to the simple fact that music is a language.

    As many poets will testify the written version will only get you so far, the rest is down to the interpretation of the player.
    The ability of a poet, orator, player or singer to interpret an breathe life into the written record is a product of their understanding and their feel for the form. The written record is the skeleton on which the full form is built.

    The original lecture merely points out the fact that there are limitations to the skeleton which is recorded and the performer needs to understand this. As Pablo Casals always taught, the music on the page is the door through which you access the musical landscape beyond. To begin an argument about which type of door frame you walk through seems truly bizarre to me and would seem to indicate that people haven't understood the point.

    Often the difference made to your eventual interpretations of a piece by using a score is great. By looking at the abstracted version, rather than the currently internalised version, you free yourself to approach it anew without having to clear the internalised interpretation first. You look past the distractions of the fully formed body in whatever clothing you have previously dressed the tunes seeing to the bare bones beyond. This allows you first to put a new flesh on the structure then to dress and ornament it as you like.

    There is an error in the original premise of the argument and that comes from the negative connotations around the word' limitations'.
    They are only limitations in the way the presence of a bare structure is limiting. I would argue that the fact that any musical notation is incomplete is one of the great strengths of the notated forms we have. They allow levels of interpretation which are completely ignored by far too many people who claim to understand music. The sad fact is that too many mentors of our musicians have for far too long taught that their interpretation and way of walking through the musical doors of notation is the only correct way.
    They should be riotously ridiculed like the puffed up clowns they are.

    As for those who do not use notation, that is a choice they are entitled to make just as someone could chose to explore the world without being able to use a written guide or map. I'm not sure I'd be brave enough to go too far or into very strange lands without a good guide though, so if you're lucky enough to live where you can access such a good musical guide or it is your natural landscape, then you're fortunate indeed and should grasp the opportunity while it lasts. Nowadays too many musical explorers are either prey to guides of inadequate ability or limited knowledge or guide books which are similarly deficient.
    Many are lucky enough to be immersed in places where there is a living culture which is still passed between people and the idea of using a written out version would seem alien there. But if you want to wander unexplored places or find hidden byways then you won't get it from theses living sources within easy reach. You either need a good local guide or the written version.
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  23. #65
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    Default Re: Advantages/Disadvantages of Notation (not Mandolin Specific)

    Quote Originally Posted by RonEllison View Post
    Hi ralph johansson

    Were you drunk when you posted this? You quoted me saying that I taught notation yet express outrage that I also taught tab. It's a funny old world isn't it?

    The first part of any private lesson was to do with what the student wanted. Back then, and we are talking decades ago, no student expressed a wish to learn notation. They all wanted to learn to play. My policy was to deliver what was wanted. Call it business.
    I was perfectly sober. I even managed to spell the verb "lose" correctly.

    I did not comment on your "teaching tab" (tab can be explained in at most two sentences; putting it to practical use is a different matter). What I commented on was the following sentence: "Notation would take far far longer and probably loose the student's interest, and therefore loose me money." Note: "probably".Now it seems that you do try to to understand the student's goals (or perhaps even help him/her clarify them).

    In my experience the main dividing line is between those who don't want to bother with theory (i.e., "just play") and those who want to acquire some musicianship on the mandolin. In the former category you find, e.g., those to whom the main advantage of tab is that you don't have to "worry" about keys (genuine example from the Café).

    I won't go into a discussion on the optimal methods for achieving the latter goal, because that's really off topic. But I always advise those who are serious about learning to play and make music, and function in a group on their chosen instrument, to find a teacher who is a gigging musician.

  24. #66

    Default Re: Advantages/Disadvantages of Notation (not Mandolin Specific)

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph johansson View Post
    Now it seems that you do try to to understand the student's goals (or perhaps even help him/her clarify them).
    The odd thing about your earlier posts is that you seemed to assume that Ron didn't communicate with his students. I, and I think many other posters, didn't ignore that possibility and therefore didn't read the post the way you did. It was especially odd because you were blaming him of prejudice while seemingly portraying some prejudice against him and the way he teaches.

    I'm just explaining how others are reading your posts (the spelling attacks don't help BTW). Maybe you didn't mean to come off like that.
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    Default Re: Advantages/Disadvantages of Notation (not Mandolin Specific)

    Quote Originally Posted by sblock View Post


    At the same time, most of the world's music has not been put into standard notation, either!! Or tab, for that matter. And when it comes to folk music, jazz, and other genres -- almost anything besides classical music, in fact -- I'd wager you that there are a while more recordings of tunes than available sheet music.
    .
    Not at all. I don't think there is much really, that hasn't been put into notation. Very old traditional music I grant you, from traditional cultures that didn't or don't have written languages.

    I would agree with you about written music not having captured particular jazz moments or epic rock performances. But the tunes themselves are available in written music. Its out there.

    Yes there is a lot of classical music, but there is soooooo much more than classical written out in notation. There are hundreds if not thousands of tune books of traditional fiddle tunes, in any particular tradition, from all over the world. And hundreds of tune books of dance music, traditional and otherwise, from everywhere. And many universities are digitizing old sheet music of popular tunes of fifty years ago. There is at least one monster collection of ragtime music, likely many. And how much Broadway musicals and show tunes are collected in fake books.

    I have six book shelves of music - tune books, sheet music, fake books, notebooks of loose sheets, and of all of that only a small fraction is classical by anyone's definition.
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    Default Re: Advantages/Disadvantages of Notation (not Mandolin Specific)

    Quote Originally Posted by dang View Post
    Pulled out some standard notation after reading this thread, and I have to admit I hate it but want to be able to sight read standard notation. In my days as a tuba player i could easily sight read bass clef but the best I could on mando was to name the note and then find it on the fretboard. Slow going.

    One disadvantage of standard notation, various clefs!
    I've always felt it's a mistake to learn (or teach) only the clef of your own instrument. I'm happy I decided to learn grand staff when I got started on the guitar about 58 years ago; it facilitated my understanding of harmony, among other things. Soprano and bass clef put together is really one single staff, composed of 11 lines, one of them (middle C) latent; in other words, the two staves are simply continuations of one another. At the same time I regret not being fluent in alto clef (where middle C is located on the middle line) as I like to study scores of string quartets. And orchestral scores (horns in F, trumpets without key signature, etc.) are beyond me. (Orchestral scores with horns in F, clarinets in Bb, etc. is beyond me. Used to be I could play from the Bb and Eb books of a saxophonist friend - he switched from tenor to baritone- but for several decades I have relied much less on written music so I lost that ability.)

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    Default Re: Advantages/Disadvantages of Notation (not Mandolin Specific)

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    Not at all. I don't think there is much really, that hasn't been put into notation. Very old traditional music I grant you, from traditional cultures that didn't or don't have written languages.

    I would agree with you about written music not having captured particular jazz moments or epic rock performances. But the tunes themselves are available in written music. Its out there.

    Yes there is a lot of classical music, but there is soooooo much more than classical written out in notation. There are hundreds if not thousands of tune books of traditional fiddle tunes, in any particular tradition, from all over the world. And hundreds of tune books of dance music, traditional and otherwise, from everywhere. And many universities are digitizing old sheet music of popular tunes of fifty years ago. There is at least one monster collection of ragtime music, likely many. And how much Broadway musicals and show tunes are collected in fake books.

    I have six book shelves of music - tune books, sheet music, fake books, notebooks of loose sheets, and of all of that only a small fraction is classical by anyone's definition.
    Well this is the Western view. My interests however reach well beyond -

    If you want to confine yourself to 12-tet music (essentially, music than can be notated in SN - with reasonable effectiveness), then this can be a viable view. However, as has been pointed out by several posters - what of al the music in the world that predates or otherwise cannot be put into the box that is 12-tet. For example - I'm currently immersed in music from about 1k to about 1400 - perhaps earlier -from tabulatures that are only recently being understood. Increasingly more ancient forms will become availed to us - without benefit of SN. So much music is completely beyond the,realm of SN -

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    Default Re: Advantages/Disadvantages of Notation (not Mandolin Specific)

    Quote Originally Posted by sblock View Post
    It is hard for me to understand Ralph Johansson's vehment opposition to tab, expressed in this thread. Standard notation has its place. But so does tab. They are both centuries-old, and they each have some very useful features. Each one can do some things easily that the other cannot, and this has been pointed out several times by now. Importantly, neither one is going away any time soon. He's welcome to stick with notation, and no one here seems to be trying to persuade him to take up tab.

    But he is wrong to suggest that tab is somehow inferior, and even more wrong when he asserts that it has no professional utility. The facts say otherwise.

    And what I exactly have I expressed? Where's the vehemence? Summing up I've simply pointed out, several times, that the lecture
    is not about SN vs. tab; and that I don't agree that it's important become fluent in tab. I've also pointed out its didactic utility. As for its professional utility I trust the experience of JimD and DavidKOS.

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    Default Re: Advantages/Disadvantages of Notation (not Mandolin Specific)

    Yes, JeffD, there's a whole lot of printed sheet music out there -- which is a wonderful thing. And there's certainly more sheet music printed than there is tablature. But these numbers pale, I think, in comparison to the numbers of recordings that have been made. There are even MORE recordings out there!! It's an open question about which is more numerous, but I think the statistics are overwhelmingly on my side for this one.

    Of course, having universities and other nonprofits digitize old sheet music is wonderful, and it makes this material more available, but it does NOT increase the diversity of what already exists. That's a bit like saying that some old LP album is being re-released on CD. It's still the same recording. So we have to try to count unique pieces available, and not the total number of items, i.e., the catalog size. This is not easy, but we can make some headway, because the answer is not even close.

    Since the advent of sound recording and reproduction (going back to Thomas Edison and others in the late 1800's), there has been an explosive, exponential growth in the number of recordings available. It has completely dwarfed sheet music printing! This exponential growth has been somewhat akin to Moore's Law in the computer field, where the power of computer chips doubles roughly every two years. In the Moore's Law scenario, for example, there were as many computer transistors manufactured in the last two years of production alone as during the entire history of computers up to that point!

    It's hard to get exact numbers, but the current Gracenote CD catalog alone, which does not even include LP records, cassette tapes, and other obsolete forms (or near-obsolete, for us vinyl lovers!), and does not include a lot of the recorded music that MC participants tend to own (a minuscule amount, in comparison) numbers around 36 million recordings of individual tunes or performances. And it's growing at an incredible rate, with millions of recordings now being added per year. That's a staggering number, and staggering growth. If you could somehow take all the sheet music for all the individual songs and tunes and classical pieces that have ever been printed and put them together into a single library (without redundancy), you would not have even 10% of that huge number. SheetMusicPlus.com and MusicNotes.com have among the largest existing catalogs of sheet music, and neither of their catalogs tops even 1 million entries (~950,000 in the largest). Of course, they are missing a lot of stuff (but so is the GraceNote CD catalog), but these numbers are fully representative. The truth is that unique recordings outnumber unique sheet music by a large factor, and that factor grows even larger every year!

    Of course, it's a very different question to ask what types of music happen to be available as sheet music, or as recordings, or as both. Yes, nearly all classical music is available in both forms (and sheet music alone may exist for some pieces that have never been recorded. But it's very rare to find any classical piece that hasn't been transcribed into notation). As for certain types of folk music -- here, traditional Irish/Celtic music is a good example, and of interest to many MC members -- some old tunes are easier to find as sheet music than as recordings, mainly because they're no longer being played, for the most part. The same holds true for a lot of popular music from the 1800's and early 1900's (early Tin Pan Alley tunes, the Stephen Foster/parlor era, Dixieland Jazz and so on), and for some very ancient types of music as well. But that entire canon is tiny compared to all the others! When it comes to anything in the jazz, pop, bluegrass, "world" music, modern-era folk, and (the list goes on!), recordings outstrip the availability of sheet music by a very wide margin. In fact, it's true for just about any music produced in the 20th or 21st century, once recording technology became widespread.

    There is more sheet music out there than you can manage to play in a full lifetime. But there is more recorded music out there than you can play in many, many lifetimes. And, as I wrote, the situation grows more lopsided every year. Standard notation still has a bit of life in it, but I suspect that other (better, computer-based) forms of notation will supplant it completely in another 100 years (perhaps less) -- and these newer forms of notation will be able to capture more of what goes into a musical performance, and they will be able to transcribe automatically from an instrument being played. They will be able to transpose, arrange for other single instruments or groups of instruments, and develop variations, etc. And they will be downwardly compatible with standard notation, too. Until then, standard notation and tab will still hang around. But neither one is growing very fast now.

    Music is not dead! Music will never be dead!! But face it: standard musical notation is, slowly, going the way of the dodo bird. Music is all about listening, and about performance. The well-known limitations of standard notation, in being able to "record" things, will ultimately drive folks to finding much better ways to capture and convey music in the digital era.

  31. #72

    Default Re: Advantages/Disadvantages of Notation (not Mandolin Specific)

    Quote Originally Posted by sblock View Post
    There is more sheet music out there than you can manage to play in a full lifetime. But there is more recorded music out there than you can play in many, many lifetimes. And, as I wrote, the situation grows more lopsided every year. Standard notation still has a bit of life in it, but I suspect that other (better, computer-based) forms of notation will supplant it completely in another 100 years (perhaps less) -- and these newer forms of notation will be able to capture more of what goes into a musical performance, and they will be able to transcribe automatically from an instrument being played. They will be able to transpose, arrange for other single instruments or groups of instruments, and develop variations, etc. And they will be downwardly compatible with standard notation, too. Until then, standard notation and tab will still hang around. But neither one is growing very fast now.

    Music is not dead! Music will never be dead!! But face it: standard musical notation is, slowly, going the way of the dodo bird. Music is all about listening, and about performance. The well-known limitations of standard notation, in being able to "record" things, will ultimately drive folks to finding much better ways to capture and convey music in the digital era.
    Can't say you'll be wrong about standard notation dying out, but I don't think there being more recordings is necessarily evidence of that. Recordings have many uses in addition to telling a performer how to play - a better form of evidence would be if performers are choosing to use recordings instead of standard notation (and not counting performers who choose to use recordings over live performance). It's like saying that the printed book is dying out because there is a lot more text stored digitally - doesn't really follow, but if people are reading ebooks (or audiobooks) instead of printed books, that's significant. And a lot of the genres you listed may be transitioning from learning by live performance to learning from recordings, which doesn't really fit into the "is standard notation dying?" question.

    Looking at contemporary classical music by itself, it might be hard to say if there trends of it dying out (although I'm sure there are musicologists that could answer that or at least are researching it). Seems like whether staff notation is used is a question of whether it suits the music. Like Stockhausen, which was mentioned above: sometimes staff notation (maybe with new extensions) made sense and sometimes (like for his electronic pieces), staff notation did not make any sense. A lot of the contemporary composers I know personally (mostly people that have done at least some electronic/computer music) use a mix of standard notation, non-standard but graphical notation, text scores, and no notation at all.

    All depends on what the composer wants to convey. And who can tell what composers will want to convey in 100 years?
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  32. #73

    Default Re: Advantages/Disadvantages of Notation (not Mandolin Specific)

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    Well this is the Western view. My interests however reach well beyond -

    If you want to confine yourself to 12-tet music (essentially, music than can be notated in SN - with reasonable effectiveness), then this can be a viable view. However, as has been pointed out by several posters - what of al the music in the world that predates or otherwise cannot be put into the box that is 12-tet. For example - I'm currently immersed in music from about 1k to about 1400 - perhaps earlier -from tabulatures that are only recently being understood. Increasingly more ancient forms will become availed to us - without benefit of SN. So much music is completely beyond the,realm of SN -
    I agree that the standard/staff notation favors the western classical tradition. But it isn't really confined to equal temperament. Other types of 12 (or fewer) tone temperament and some types of just tuning work just as well on a standard staff with the standard sharp/flat notation. Then, when you get to adding other symbols (or writing a deviation in cents from 12TET for each note), it's just a question of what counts as "standard".

    (This has nothing to do with non-western classical tradition music - just non-ET music in that tradition.)
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  34. #74

    Default Re: Advantages/Disadvantages of Notation (not Mandolin Specific)

    Quote Originally Posted by objectsession View Post
    I agree that the standard/staff notation favors the western classical tradition. But it isn't really confined to equal temperament. Other types of 12 (or fewer) tone temperament and some types of just tuning work just as well on a standard staff with the standard sharp/flat notation. Then, when you get to adding other symbols (or writing a deviation in cents from 12TET for each note), it's just a question of what counts as "standard".

    (This has nothing to do with non-western classical tradition music - just non-ET music in that tradition.)
    Yes, thanks. I'm thinking of systems* such as Arabic maqam, Indian raga, and other aural/oral systems .. the most I've heard of so far is a 79-tone temperament .. unless it was Partch or someone with 104 (seems to be in my vague recollection somewhere), but there are any and all manner permutations ..

    My primary point was re-iterating mention of the world of music not subsumed under written "standard" notation, and beyond purview of our Grand Tradition(s).

    *where "pitch" and its concepts is of lesser importance than as in Western harmony, etc (I shouldn't say "importance" - a better word is...) - while SN is possible to notate a variety of systems, its viability or practicality in doing so is a factor. But I'm no mathematician
    Last edited by catmandu2; Aug-01-2015 at 5:10pm.

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  36. #75
    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Advantages/Disadvantages of Notation (not Mandolin Specific)

    Quote Originally Posted by objectsession View Post
    Can't say you'll be wrong about standard notation dying out, but I don't think there being more recordings is necessarily evidence of that. Recordings have many uses in addition to telling a performer how to play - a better form of evidence would be if performers are choosing to use recordings instead of standard notation (and not counting performers who choose to use recordings over live performance). It's like saying that the printed book is dying out because there is a lot more text stored digitally - doesn't really follow, but if people are reading ebooks (or audiobooks) instead of printed books, that's significant. And a lot of the genres you listed may be transitioning from learning by live performance to learning from recordings, which doesn't really fit into the "is standard notation dying?" question.
    You are right to point out that the overwhelming popularity -- and availability -- of instrumental recordings over sheet music is not evidence, per se, that standard notation is dying out. But it is a part of the totality of all evidence. And these are sort of apples and oranges comparisons, because most performers who rely on sheet music -- and that is not necessarily the majority of performers any more, the way it once was! -- ALSO take full advantage of recordings. These things are not mutually exclusive (they can be complementary, in fact), and I've tried to be clear about that when discussing things. That said, sheet music sales are not tracking, proportionally, with overall recording sales, and they haven't for a long time now. So sheet music is increasingly becoming rare compared to the availability of music. The current state of affairs is that majority of the music that the people on our planet hear today has no sheet music available for it! And that doesn't look to be changing in the years ahead. I do agree that standard notation has plenty of life left in it, but let us face some awkward facts: notation is difficult to master (for most), slow and too inconvenient to write (for most), too limited in its ability to capture actual performance (or musical nuance, or musical genre), and mostly able transcribe only the Western Tradition of classical music -- but little else beyond that, except with considerable difficulty or large numbers of non-standard "additions" to the notation. Mark my words, std. notation it will disappear in a few generations. It is not keeping up, and it cannot keep up. With the advent of increasingly sophisticated software, the next generations of musicians will have the ability to overcome all these pesky issues, and transit more smoothly between the actual goal -- learning to make beautiful musical sounds -- and the method of transcription of those sounds into something permanent (either on paper, or in silico!), in a way that can instruct other musicians on how to make similar sounds. Meanwhile, as many have advised, folks should still learn to read notation and still learn to read tab, too. I am no snob about such things, and learning is a good goal for life. But notation is already antiquated and inadequate.

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