The low-end whomp, or woof sound on some mandolins...

[guitarua]

I know this may be a loaded question, but I am looking to all the Mando enthusiasts out there to inform me. I have played a few instruments that exhibit this low-end, "whomp" or "woof" like no other (Heiden and a Nugget, both F-style). My A-style doesn't have this quality, but has more punch and evenness in the mids and highs.

My question is: What other builders have you played that exhibit that characteristic? Is it something unique to only F-style bodies, or have you played A's that have the same low-end response?

I know this is all subjective, but it's something i'm curious about, and without endless air miles to travel the country and try out dozens of builders, I'd like to hear others' experiences. Thanks much in advance!

[fscotte]

I find the low end "whomp" comes from a back plate that is flexible enough to couple well with the top plate. In my world, that means the back plate deflects as much as or as close to the top plate. So to answer the question, any mandolin builder or brand could offer this. Keep looking.

[Josh Levine]

The 2001-2004 Gibson F/A9s I have played exhibited the low end whoomp you speak off. Ellis mandolins are known for being pretty low end heavy as well.

[Londy]

My collings is throaty or woody or deep bark. Not tinney at all. Just mean sounding yet sweet at the same time. Well balanced IMO.

[UsuallyPickin]

I have an 88 F5L from Bozeman that has a strong low end ...

[almeriastrings]

Try to check out a Silverangel, if you get the chance.

[Michael Bridges]

Try to check out a Silverangel, if you get the chance.

+1 Ken's Silverangels have a solid "Thunk" to the bottom end like no other I've heard.

[Tobin]

Ellis mandolins are known for being pretty low end heavy as well.

Yup, Ellis mandolins have a very good bottom end. Pick and string choice will bring it out or tone it down, of course. But I find myself using the low end a lot. Chop chords have a nice boomy sound too.

[Bill Baldridge]

A fair question, but I think you are likely to only get everyone telling you what mandolin they play. By the way, I play a Daley. Had it voiced for woof sound when I had it built.

[guitarua]

Thanks for all the responses thus far.

To those who have/have played Ellis mandos: Would you say the A-styles exhibit the same tonal characteristics?

I have played several Collings and a Gibson Fern from 2001-2004. Only one out of all of these exhibited these tonal qualities, and it was a very early MF-5. It sounded like no other Collings I've ever heard. In general I find Collings to be even and balanced, but lacking that bottom end woof. Same thing with most Gibsons.

I agree, Bill, and expected everyone to tell me what they play

[guitarua]

whoops double post edit

[TEvans]

My ellis definitely has that really punchy and clear low end. Mine is also red maple back and sides instead of the standard sugar maple (So I have been told). I haven't A-B'd it with a standard sugar maple Ellis, but I have read in a few places that red maple produces a bit more of a smooth and rounded low end.

[mandobsessed]

I have a Gibson A9 that definitely has that woof A vs F should make no difference as it is the sound chamber.not the scroll that makes the difference. The best woof I have heard
is from a Muth Mandolin I heard about ten years ago... Still can hear it.
If you strike the strings with your pick at an angle and play with double stops on the g and d strings you can make almost any Mandolin woofy IMO.

[Toni Schula]

Krishot mandolins from Czech Republic have this low end quality.

You can see two of them literally unfinished in my avatar.

[almeriastrings]

To those who have/have played Ellis mandos: Would you say the A-styles exhibit the same tonal characteristics?

Yes.

[fscotte]

A fair question, but I think you are likely to only get everyone telling you what mandolin they play. By the way, I play a Daley. Had it voiced for woof sound when I had it built.

My late 90's Gibson A5L was built by Sim Daley. It has that "woofy whomp" as well. It's as fine a sounding as a Loar I feel, since I played at least one at Elderly a while back. In fact it's the sound I try to build. So I think the builder is more important than the make. I've played Gibson master models from the same era that did not have the "whomp".

[LongBlackVeil]

My Ellis a5 has the best low end in any mandolin I've played, including several other Ellis fs. I wouldn't look to Gibson for that sound at all. I've never played one with true womp, they're midrangey and great for cutting through a mix. I would say yes the As are on par and some even better than the fs. F or A it makes no difference, it's down to that particular instrument and it's wood etc, true for any builder.

The good thing about the big full low end sound is that it sounds perfect in a small group, the bad thing is in a large group it gets lost pretty easily

If you don't want to pony up for an Ellis, silver angel definitely has oomph, more oomph than Ellis' is usually, but not BETTER imo

[JeffD]

My Stiver two point could be characterized that way.

[journeybear]

Both of my teens Gibson A's have pretty boomy bottoms, so to speak. I think that's a common characteristic of them, so I'm a bit surprised JeffD didn't mention his. Or are we just talking new builders?

[FLATROCK HILL]

Both of my teens Gibson A's have pretty boomy bottoms, so to speak. I think that's a common characteristic of them, so I'm a bit surprised JeffD didn't mention his. Or are we just talking new builders?

I think we might be drifting into the semantics problem again, or at least a limitation in the words we use to describe sounds.
My '20 Gibson A has a "pretty boomy bottom", as you put it, but that bassy sound I would describe as 'tubby'...low, but with a ringing sustain. It does not have the "whomp" or "woof" that I believe the OP is asking about.

If those words don't clear it all up, we can always break out 'bark', 'dry', 'woody' and 'throaty'.

[fscotte]

Look this fella up under the Music Emporium video uploads. This is just about the best series of comparisons you'll find on YouTube. He plays an assortment of mandolins and keeps the same mics and positions so you can hear the differences between mandos. There's even an Ellis or two in there and even a Monteleone. Plus he's a great player to boot.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XqHNLlNrnLo

[karlmando]

Look this fella up under the Music Emporium video uploads. This is just about the best series of comparisons you'll find on YouTube. He plays an assortment of mandolins and keeps the same mics and positions so you can hear the differences between mandos. There's even an Ellis or two in there and even a Monteleone. Plus he's a great player to boot.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XqHNLlNrnLo

Really great comparison videos!!! Trouble comes up when we use words to describe sounds... So I'll go ahead and do just that!

That low end Gibson "Thunk/d" is my favorite sound of all time. You can really hear the difference between it, and the Ellis, and Collings in those videos. The Ellis sounds sweet, balanced, and refined to my ears, while the Gibson sounds a little more crude and old school and leans to the low side, and the Collings tend to be almost scooped, with strong lows and strong highs. I always personally loved that Gibson sound.

I love the standard mahogany Gibson J45 guitar for the same reason. It's got it's own percussive "thunk/d" also, but it's not the preferred guitar for most bluegrassers, who like the cut and clarity of a Martin. I think I like it for the same reason though.

It's all good though and subjective. We are lucky to be living in a time with so many options, types of music, and so many great builders!

[almeriastrings]

Be very wary of judging by any recording... it can be incredibly misleading. Some instruments sound great recorded, but nothing special when heard in person, and vice-versa. You just can't tell. There is no substitute for hearing them in real life and actually playing them, only then does it truly begin to fit together.

What LongBlackVeil says it worth repeating. There is a definite balance to be aimed at, and more is not always better in all situations. There is a big difference between what might work or sound best (to you) in a strictly solo setting vs. what might work best up against a 5-string and a full band. Then again, that is what mandolin "stables" are for...

[karlmando]

Be very wary of judging by any recording... it can be incredibly misleading. Some instruments sound great recorded, but nothing special when heard in person, and vice-versa. You just can't tell. There is no substitute for hearing them in real life and actually playing them, only then does it truly begin to fit together.

What LongBlackVeil says it worth repeating. There is a definite balance to be aimed at, and more is not always better in all situations. There is a big difference between what might work or sound best (to you) in a strictly solo setting vs. what might work best up against a 5-string and a full band. Then again, that is what mandolin "stables" are for...

Good point and wicked true. But those controlled comparison recordings are still really useful for listening for the tonal characteristics you might like. They aren't perfect, but you can clearly hear the differences, and many of us can't run out to the music store and play a few Collings, Ellis and Gibsons side by side.

I like your point also, of "what can I use this for?". I've heard a few "excellent bluegrass mandolins" that seem to make my ears bleed and crack my glasses when played solo, but really shine in a bluegrass situation with the band chugging along and the banjo blazing.

[Nick Gellie]

If you don't want to pony up for an Ellis, silver angel definitely has oomph, more oomph than Ellis' is usually, but not BETTER imo

I agree. My Pava is more balanced across the full range. Silverangel A I had lost a bit at the top end.