Perplexing harmony question

[Patrick Bouldin]

To harmony experts here. I've often wondered why, let's say when you are picking the tenor harmony a third above melody, that some notes don't fit and that sometimes it's the 4th that does. Example would be the 8th (or 1st in next octave) fits better than the 7th.

Any reason for that, is this correct or maybe the 7th does work and my hearing is upside down, which is definitely possible!

Patrick

[Jim Broyles]

Well, a third above does always form a pleasant harmony, but it may not fit the chord of the tune or song. In your example, the third above produces the major 7th of the I chord, which may not sound right in a particular song, where as the 4th produces the I triad which does sound right. You really can't use all thirds when following the changes of the song.

[Patrick Bouldin]

Well, a third above does always form a pleasant harmony, but it may not fit the chord of the tune or song. In your example, the third above produces the major 7th of the I chord, which may not sound right in a particular song, where as the 4th produces the I triad which does sound right. You really can't use all thirds when following the changes of the song.

Ahhh... ok, thanks very much Jim. Here I thought this was "plug and play". I would map out the harmony on paper think "man, I'm doing something wrong!". So now that my expectations are in check I can work from that. My other post was about software, which still would be a fast track but I'll need to still be prepared to tweak it.

Patrick

[Bill Stokes]

I've read both threads with interest. I'm a music teacher, and I love harmony. It's a whole world; it's worlds within worlds.
It seems as though you can tell when notes "don't fit." So maybe you have the most important asset, which is a good ear.

I'd recommend some study of harmony. (Why they call it "music theory" is beyond me. Music nuts-and-bolts is more like it. How harmony works.) Intervals: major third vs. minor third. Passing tones: sometimes a minor second or another dissonance is exquisitely beautiful harmony, on its way to resolution. This stuff is endlessly fascinating to me.

With regard to your other post, BIAB can generate a harmony line. iReal Pro can't. I use both for practice tracks, but for creating a harmony lines, I always make my own. More fun. What's the hurry?

[Joseph Baker]

"You really can't use all thirds when following the changes of the song."

That's correct.
I tried writing out a song a third above the melody line... and realized that I wasn't writing harmony - I was changing the key of the song.

Joseph Baker

[k0k0peli]

Parallel major thirds, or minor thirds, or or any fixed interval, have their place. But if they take you out of piece's or phrase's key (except as passing or grace notes) it's "Hello, dissonance!" An easy demonstration: pick up a guitar and play a melody on the G (3rd) string harmonized at the same fret on the B (2nd) string in parallel major thirds. Wince, then drop back one fret on the B for minor thirds, or move up one fret on the B for fourths. Those help immensely.

[John Kelly]

That's correct.
I tried writing out a song a third above the melody line... and realized that I wasn't writing harmony - I was changing the key of the song.

Joseph Baker

Joseph, you have nailed this one in a sentence! The harmonies must take into account the chordal structure underlying the tune.

[roysboy]

I'm no theory expert but if we're talking Bluegrass harmonies....particularly vocals...we have a whole different animal . Its fascinating to me the role harmony plays in defining that genre of music and how effective it is .

[JeffD]

Alas there are no plug and play solutions. Let your ears be your guide.

[terzinator]

Music is hard

[Patrick Bouldin]

I've read both threads with interest. I'm a music teacher, and I love harmony. It's a whole world; it's worlds within worlds.
It seems as though you can tell when notes "don't fit." So maybe you have the most important asset, which is a good ear.

I'd recommend some study of harmony. (Why they call it "music theory" is beyond me. Music nuts-and-bolts is more like it. How harmony works.) Intervals: major third vs. minor third. Passing tones: sometimes a minor second or another dissonance is exquisitely beautiful harmony, on its way to resolution. This stuff is endlessly fascinating to me.

With regard to your other post, BIAB can generate a harmony line. iReal Pro can't. I use both for practice tracks, but for creating a harmony lines, I always make my own. More fun. What's the hurry?

Hey Bill, that's good info. Question, if you don't mind... you mentioned you teach music and recommended study of harmony, possibly using intervals and passing tones. Could you provide a little more "how to suggestion" on that. How would you go about it?
Best,
Patrick

[Bill Stokes]

Here is one source: https://www.coursera.org/course/musictheory
I haven't looked at that class, but I've taken other really good classes online from Coursera.
I also found a class at iTunes Open University. Here is the section on harmony.
There must be other good resources online.
And it's not rocket surgery, as they say. Some of this stuff can look complicated, but it is made of very simple building blocks. All of Western music is 12 notes, and combinations of them. (And, well, combinations of the combinations. Plus rhythm...)
Let me know how it's going. Cheers

[farmerjones]

A piano keyboard is a chord theory diagram, if you know the names of the keys. (piano keys not the tonic center)
It still mystifies me why even in the key of C, (supposedly no sharps or flats) if there's a D (major) chord, I still play an F# within the D chord. Same goes for the flatted third in the Em. I know it has more to do with the mode, but with nothing else to guide me, I still go by my ear. I know the ii in C is a Dm because it goes I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, VII. But, as I said, a D chord is still a D major chord no matter the key. As is an Em is still an E minor no matter the key. Aug., Sus., and chord inversions really add other orders of magnitude to the complexity. Too many choices to make if you're picking something up on the fly.

[jshane]

All of Western music is 12 notes, and combinations of them. (And, well, combinations of the combinations. Plus rhythm...)

Plus soul.

[JeffD]

Plus soul.

The secret is sincerity. If you can fake that you can do it all.

[JeffD]

Music is hard

This is so very true in my experience. It is hard. It is fun and I love it, but to my experience that has not made it easier.

Its just that the rewards for hard work and persistence and tenacity are really really worth it.

[spufman]

This is a great thread for me, as I also still defer to my ear. I'm glad to read I'm not alone in being somewhat mystified by moving applications of harmony. I'm going to look into classes, because I want to know.

[farmerjones]

because I want to know.

I hear you. But sometimes the reason the left most black key of the three is F# because it is.

IOW, sometimes I am far more creative/inventive because I don't know or I have some contempt for some rule. However, there is a line that goes, "you can't break the rules unless you know what they are." It's an internal battle to me. To get so musically sophisticated the only musicians one can converse with are Walter Becker and Donald Fagen.

[John Ritchhart]

Bluegrass harmony is maybe its own thing. The idea of three part "close harmony" is what drives most of these vocals where the parts are melody or lead, and the other two are tenor and baritone. In other words, the appropriate harmony notes are the ones closest to the melody note. The way I was taught is the melody note is almost always one of the three notes of the chord you are on at the moment. The melody note could be the root, the third or the fifth of the chord. The tenor note is always the next note above the melody in the chord, and the baritone note is the other one. In the key of C (C,E,G) for example, if, say, the first melody note is the root, then the tenor sings the E and the baritone sings the G, usually below the lead. But this can be stacked in different ways depending on the voices involved. Now if the next melody note is E, and the chord hasn't changed, the tenor signs the G and the baritone sings the C. and continuing on to the melody on the G the tenor sings C and the baritone has the E. If the chord changes to F, the same rules apply but now the singers are singing F,A, and C. The voices are usually stacked low baritone, lead, and high tenor, but this can be stacked differently. I believe the Osborne brothers sang with a high lead, low baritone and low tenor below that. The notes that each part gets follow the same rules but they can be sung an octave below or above the lead. Clear as mud?

[groveland]

A piano keyboard is a chord theory diagram, if you know the names of the keys. (piano keys not the tonic center)
It still mystifies me why even in the key of C, (supposedly no sharps or flats) if there's a D (major) chord, I still play an F# within the D chord. Same goes for the flatted third in the Em. I know it has more to do with the mode, but with nothing else to guide me, I still go by my ear. I know the ii in C is a Dm because it goes I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, VII. But, as I said, a D chord is still a D major chord no matter the key. As is an Em is still an E minor no matter the key. Aug., Sus., and chord inversions really add other orders of magnitude to the complexity. Too many choices to make if you're picking something up on the fly.

In the key of C there is no D major chord. It's a D minor (ii) like you said. I think what you might really be asking is, "What key has both a C major and a D major chord in it?" The key of G major does, the key of one sharp, an F#. So you really aren't in C major after all. If the tonal center is really C, and you are playing the notes of the G major scale, that means you are in C Lydian mode: The C major scale with a raised 4th degree (F#).

You play in Lydian mode that often? Cool.

[farmerjones]

In the key of C there is no D major chord.

Sure there is. But I'd call it an outside chord. I can't think of the instance other than a ascending or descending passage, off hand. If I had a point. I guess it would be, it's music theory, not music law.

[Jon Hall]

When a Dmaj or D7 is played in the key of C major, it nearly always leads to a G maj or G7; in which case, it is a substitution. Once you know the rules, you are free to break the rules.

[bobby bill]

When you have a D7 chord in the key of C, it is typically a secondary dominant, meaning it is the dominant (or V) chord of the chord it precedes (in this case G). By using the V chord in the key of G, there is a fleeting shift of the tonal center to G, but too brief to be called a modulation, as the G or G7 typically resolves back to the I chord - C. We would call it a Five of Five and sometimes you might even see a Five of Five of Five, such as the beginning of Sweet Georgia Brown.

I do not see a battle between knowing this intellectually and hearing it. The V-I chord progression is universal and we all can hear it. Knowing what is going on simply reaffirms and confirms what we are hearing.

[John Ritchhart]

Yea you hear that 2 chord preceding the 5 chord in lots of gospel songs. Also in some bluegrass tunes like the B part of The Old Home Place.

[Bill Stokes]

you might even see a Five of Five of Five, such as the beginning of Sweet Georgia Brown.

It used to be called "back cycling." Circle of fifths arriving at your home key, like the bridge of I Got Rhythm and most other Rhythm Changes tunes. Take Oleo, for example: