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Thread: Can I use octave mandolin strings on mandola?

  1. #1

    Default Can I use octave mandolin strings on mandola?

    Adult learner took several years of lessons on viola. Never played another instrument before. Wanted to learn more about chord theory, etc., so I found the fretted equivalent of viola in mandola. Have been working on it for 10 months. Love it. The only problem is that now that I know the neck, I would like to work on learning crosspicking and other right-hand work. However, there are, of course, virtually no music teaching materials written for this instrument..or in alto clef. I have now learned to read treble clef too. I am using mandolin books. However, it is awkward to play the way it is written for mandolin. I either have to put a capo on the fifth fret and work high up on neck, which is awkward spacing for fingers....or I have to make awkward position changes to higher positions in the middle of a piece, or I have to transpose down an octave and transpose in my head as I am working. I can do all this, but it is much harder than just getting a mandolin to learn the information. My question is: Could I get octave mandolin strings to work on my mandola, without causing damage to my instrument so that I at least would have it tuned GDAE and not have to buy a mandolin to get the job done? I have a Trinity College mandola- 17 inch fretboard.

  2. #2
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can I use octave mandolin strings on mandola?

    No need to ask the same question more than once.

    Transpose your materials by a fifth, not an octave. Just read them as if you were playing a mandolin.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Can I use octave mandolin strings on mandola?

    Thanks. I tried it, and this works just fine for learning the techniques. Transposing down a fifth doesn't entirely solve my problem though; it doesn't really work in all situations unless you are playing alone. Many of the viola books do this....just take a country song and transpose down..so you learn it in the wrong key. Then, when you play with others, you still have to move up to the keys that they most commonly use to play with them. So you really can't entirely avoid the problem I stated in my question...or that's how it seems to me. Enlighten me if I am wrong, please. Maybe this would solve itself when I am more thoroughly familiar with my fretboard and all the chords. Still would like an answer to the original question, if anyone knows it.
    Last edited by Dolana; May-24-2015 at 12:20pm. Reason: Modified response after I tried the suggestion he made.

  4. #4
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can I use octave mandolin strings on mandola?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dolana View Post
    My question is: Could I get octave mandolin strings to work on my mandola, without causing damage to my instrument so that I at least would have it tuned GDAE and not have to buy a mandolin to get the job done? I have a Trinity College mandola- 17 inch fretboard.
    The problem is that octave mandolin strings are just about the same gauges as mandola strings. The longer scale length of the OM allows you to tune lower. I would try to just tune your mandola strings down and see they would be playable in that tuning. Otherwise you would have to get heavier gauges.
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Can I use octave mandolin strings on mandola?

    I don't really understand string tensions and string gauges. Can anyone refer me to some good resources, so that I can learn this stuff? All the conflicting information on this that I come across on the internet is confusing. I have too many questions about this subject to address them in this forum. Thanks

  6. #6
    music with whales Jim Nollman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can I use octave mandolin strings on mandola?

    Not exactly sure what you are asking here. I have a mandola strung up as an Octave mandolin, using Thomastik Stark mandola strings. The mandola scale length is 16 inches. The low G string is a (I think) .064.
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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can I use octave mandolin strings on mandola?

    Dolana: Jim Nollman had the right idea to use heavier strings. You should also be aware that "mandola" in Europe refers to the octave tuned instrument (GDAE) whereas in North America it refers to the tenor tuned (CGDA). Thomastik is a German company and their manual strings are to be tuned GDAE.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: Can I use octave mandolin strings on mandola?

    I don't really understand string tensions and string gauges.
    I had similar question and spent the last couple to dig into this, combined with what I really found on my 20.5" OM, I will try to explain this subject. Other experts can certainly dip in and correct wherever I am wrong.

    First, I base my knowledge on the string tension calculator given in the link below
    http://www.mcdonaldstrings.com/stringxxiii.html

    String gauges are found on the label of the string package, example: 0.012 for high E, 0.017 for B, et....
    Higher number means string is thicker and will produce lower frequency given same tension.

    1) the string tension has to be about the same for all strings (I learned this from other mando cafemembers)
    2) the string tension has to be within its intended range for best sound, too slack and it feel weird, too tense and the string will sound harsh (and could break or cause immediate or gradual damage to the instrument if string tension is way too high)

    Here are examples from the calculator above on guitar (light and medium string gauges)
    PLEASE CLICK ON THE PICTURE TO SEE A READABLE INFO.

    light strings:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    medium strings:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    On my OM (22.5" scale) , the strings I bought are 0.14, 0.22w, 0.32w, 0.46w (w means wound strings)
    The calculator gives
    Click image for larger version. 

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    The 0.022w string requires 25lbs string tension which is 5lbs higher than other string tension
    The 0.046w string only requires around 17lbs string tension, the original 0.042w only need 13lbs, too slack as I found out on my OM.

    If I replace 0.022w with 0.020w (if this exists !!), I have
    Click image for larger version. 

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    And the 0.046w, if replaced with 0.050w string will requires around 20lbs which is what other strings are.
    So, based on the calculator and 20lbs string tension average, I should use 0.014 plain, 0.020w, 0.032w, 0.050w for my 20.5" OM
    The total string tension is 8 x 20 = 160 lbs is within the tolerance of my OM (was a 6 string guitar converted to OM).
    The original total string tension is about 160 lbs.

    Again, this is only a good starting point. Once I strung up with these gauges, I have to play and get a feel and need to adjust the gauges (i.e. replacing strings).

  9. #9

    Default Re: Can I use octave mandolin strings on mandola?

    So helpful, kkmm.....Please bear with me while I am trying to digest this information. So is this overview correct? Basically, as I am understanding this: My mandola is a 17-inch fretboard. When I buy a set of strings for this instrument, tuned CGDA, the tension of the strings together is calculated to total a certain range for the instrument. Too much or too little tension can cause damage. Each individual string is gauged to resonate best at the note designated for that string. This best resonating frequency, let us use G as an example, comes about as a function of both the length of the fretboard, the gauge of the string, and the tension So, if I want to change, I have to juggle these three so that total tension, and gauge of new strings is as close to original as possible. Is that correct? The octave mandolin is usually around a 21-inch fretboard, three or four inches longer than mine. I notice the gauges on those strings don't differ a lot from mine either. So, does using them on a shorter fretboard increase or decrease their tension? I really would like to understand this stuff, as there is a lot of misinformation out there. I also just had a thought: Couldn't I just use my Mandola G, D, and A strings, and just move them over one position--then just have to deal with figuring out how to get an E string to work? See, if I had just learned the violin to begin with, I wouldn't have had to learn all this stuff! Ha.

  10. #10
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can I use octave mandolin strings on mandola?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dolana View Post
    I also just had a thought: Couldn't I just use my Mandola G, D, and A strings, and just move them over one position--then just have to deal with figuring out how to get an E string to work? See, if I had just learned the violin to begin with, I wouldn't have had to learn all this stuff! Ha.
    If you do that you would be tuning your 17 inch manual to mandolin tuning not an octave below. You would also have to get a seriously thin E-string -- I believe that the lightest E-string available is .008. I suppose you could try tho be prepared to break a few strings. You would also have to recut your nut.

    I guess you also have to figure out what your musical goals are. If you are reading treble clef anyway why not just start saving and get yourself a mandolin? You are talking about converting your manual to a mandolin anyway. All this regardless of having learned viola.
    Jim

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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Can I use octave mandolin strings on mandola?

    The scale length of a 17" mandola is roughly "three frets" longer than a mandolin, so one option would be to tune to EBF#C# using a set of mandolin strings and then put a capo on the 3rd fret to give GDAE (mandolin tuning, an octave above octave mandolin). The string tension should be roughly the same as on a mandolin and therefore within safe limits.

    Depending on the strings, you might get away with tuning FCGD and capoing at the second fret for GDAE to get a bit more room up the neck. I used this tuning for a while on my 16" mandola and it worked very well.

    Patrick

  12. #12

    Default Re: Can I use octave mandolin strings on mandola?

    Too much or too little tension can cause damage.
    Only "too much tension" could cause damage, too little tension will sound weird, but cause no physical harm to the instrument.

    I enter data for your 17" mandola into the calculator and obtain these:
    light strings (click on picture to see larger photo)
    Click image for larger version. 

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    a little heavier strings
    Click image for larger version. 

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    You need to figure out on the real instrument whether 18, 21 or 25 lbs is the tension you want to have per string. Need to make sure the total tension is within the tolerance of the instrument. I just did on my 22/5 OM, start with FCGD (about 20 lbs) and found that tune it up to GDAE (23 lbs) gives a better feel and sound.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Can I use octave mandolin strings on mandola?

    Very interesting. I didn't know you could do this. I will cogitate on all this information. I know that I did read somewhere that too little tension could also damage the instrument, although I don't remember the particulars now. Anyway, thank you all for your help. I will keep an eye on this thread, in case some new information is added. Thanks again. D

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