pick direction with mixed beats.

[hatta]

I'm a beginning player with nothing but a few fiddle tunes under my belt. I am having trouble figuring out what to do with my right hand when a measure has both eighth and sixteenth notes. With all eighth note's it's easy.

1 + 2 + 3 + 4 +
d u d u d u d u

Same with sixteenth notes.

1e+a2e+a3e+a4e+
dududududududud

But what if the tune calls for 2 eighth notes, 2 sixteenth notes and then 5 more eighth notes? It seems like there are 4 ways to handle it.

1 + 2e+ 3 + 4 +
d u duu d u d u
d u ddu d u d u
d u dud u d u d
d u dud d u d u

Which of these is correct? How does this differ from a triplet? Is the duration between the '2' and the 'e' the same as the duration between the 'e' and the '+'? I could ask a similar question about dotted notes. How do those work?

Is there a good text for learning the theory behind rhythm? Everything I find about music theory focuses mostly on scales and chords and doesn't have much to say about rhythm. What book should I have read that would have answered this question for me?

[Tobin]

Wow, very good (and complicated) question for someone with only a couple of fiddle tunes under your belt! You seem to have a very good grasp on pick direction conventions, and the question you posed will usually come down to personal preference (since rules often need to be flexible for certain situations).

Personally, in a pattern like that, I would play it like your last option. Sticking to the d-u pattern on the 1, 3, and 4 beats. But in the 2 beat where you have two sixteenth notes followed by and eighth note, I'd use the same pattern I use for jigs, where it's a d-u-d, d-u-d pattern. Others may choose a different route, but since I play a lot of jigs, that's what I'd use. I'm more used to it.

[Bruce Clausen]

Yeah, good question. Like Tobin, I'd usually use your fourth option; gives you a down on each strong beat, and avoids either a quick dd or a quick uu. A good general rule is down on each beat, and down on 'and' as soon as you have sixteenths. Triplets can be tricky though; some players alternate continuously, others stay with down on the beat.

[SincereCorgi]

In notation, the written lengths of notes are kind of arbitary. In European classical music, there was a discernible 'deflation' in note values, with an note duration that might have been written as a quarter note in 1750 being written as an eighth or sixteenth in 1915.

I would take whatever your fastest standard steady subdivision was and make that your DUDU and adjust everything else accordingly. It doesn't get talked about much, but strict alternate picking breaks down very frequently once you start introducing triplets and grace notes and other stuff, so you just have to make peace with that and figure out a solution that works for you.

[JeffD]

strict alternate picking breaks down very frequently once you start introducing triplets and grace notes and other stuff, so you just have to make peace with that and figure out a solution that works for you.

True that.

When you bump into a hard one, and figure out something that works, write it out somewhere so that you can practice it over and over.

[jshane]

I agree that the last option is probably the best.

Basically, the situation you describe is functionally the same as if the 16th/8th note combo was a triplet (ie, both situations have 3 notes inserted into a pattern that would typically have either 2 or 4 notes), so any rules-of-thumb that apply for pick-direction of an inserted triplet apply here.

BUT, the specifics of sound, tone and voicing, and specific note-location on the fretboard may trump other considerations.(that is, do whatever is necessary for the passage to play smoothly and sound right).

How's THAT for a wishy-washy answer?

[ald]

Can you explain that a bit more Bruce, please?

" A good general rule is down on each beat, and down on 'and' as soon as you have sixteenths. "

[Tobin]

Can you explain that a bit more Bruce, please?

" A good general rule is down on each beat, and down on 'and' as soon as you have sixteenths. "

I think what he meant was to double the speed of picking. With eighth notes, each beat is d-u. With sixteenth notes, each beat is d-u-d-u. That puts the downstroke on the beat and the "and". Presumably, for a smooth right hand, when a measure contains both eighth and sixteenth notes, the eighth notes could be played with all downstrokes so you don't have to switch gears. But this would take a pretty fast picker.

Depending on where the random sixteenth notes fall in the pattern, I will usually try to use a hammer-on or pull-off rather than change gears from an eighth note d-u pattern. So many variables to consider...

[Bruce Clausen]

I think what he meant was to double the speed of picking. With eighth notes, each beat is d-u. With sixteenth notes, each beat is d-u-d-u. That puts the downstroke on the beat and the "and".

Exactly. So:

8th-16th-16th (long-short-short), play ddu
16th-16th-8th (short-short-long), play dud
16th-8th-16th (short-long-short), play duu

In each case you're set up for a down on the next beat.

Triplets are different because the notes are all the same length, so you can't play down on consecutive beats without doubling up somewhere (dud-dud, or ddu-ddu). I'm usually happier just keeping the alternation steady (dud-udu). Either solution needs a little practice to get it smooth and even.

[ald]

Thanks for the answers Bruce and Tobin

[hatta]

Thanks for all the answers. I tried it a bit and the last option works well for me. What helped me conceptualize it was thinking of the 8th note as a 16th and a rest. So switching to the 16th note pattern for an entire beat makes everything work out fine.