Monroe picking

[Ivan Kelsall]

Hi Dick - It seems we've been through the same school of learning to an extent,but you're one up from me on the Bela Fleck / Allison Brown stuff,i can't 'waggle my fingers' the way they do = too darn lazy to try it -not really. I'm still a die-hard, trad.Bluegrass player 50 years on, & i never really wanted to play outside the trad.Scruggs style way of playing. In the same way,although i think that Frailing (Claw hammer) style is a fabulous way to play,i never tried it for more than a half hour at a time.
You mention lugging around a heavy banjo - Oh boy !. I've often wondered whether doing that for close to 50 years has contributed to my chronic lower back pain. As a non-driver,i've had to carry mine more than most folks & in it's Mark Leaf case (now sold), it weighed in at 31 Lbs & i've carried it for miles,
Ivan

[Dick Hutchings]

Ivan, the tunes I learned from Bela Fleck / Allison Brown were of the more trad style like Texas Barbeque and Leaving Cottendale. I never got that single string stuff. I can just barely play the banjo now, use it or lose it.

Clawhammer banjos are so much lighter and what I prefer now if I pick up a banjo.

Just can't beat the fiddle and mandolin for giving your back a break. At 61, I still have this ridiculous idea that I'm going to become a real mandolin player. My fingers say different. They don't bend the way they used to. It don't matter, learning new instruments and styles never gets old. I sometimes wonder why I do it but then I realize, I have no choice. Looks like they'll pry a stringed instrument out of my hands before they close the lid.

Back to our regularly schedule program. Light pick, medium or heavy while I'm mastering this?

[Tobin]

Back to our regularly schedule program. Light pick, medium or heavy while I'm mastering this?

Personally, I think a heavy pick is the way to go. Especially when you're trying to work up your speed. By removing any flexure of the pick from the equation, it will force you to focus more on having a loose grip.

[AlanN]

Yep. Butch said this: Let the pick do the work.

[Mark Wilson]

I think a heavy pick is the way to go.

Tobin - in mm, what is 'heavy' to you?

[sgarrity]

1.5mm

[Dick Hutchings]

1.5mm sounds like crap on my mando. At least the Jazz pick I have.

[Tobin]

Tobin - in mm, what is 'heavy' to you?

Heh, well, "heavy" is a relative term, and I suppose it depends on the material. I don't know that I'd be willing to throw out a number that I would universally apply to everything. I'd rather focus on stiffness. A pick that doesn't flex under hard playing is what I think would work best for focusing on a loose grip. I've played thick picks made of soft, rubbery material that wouldn't work well here. But I've also played thinner picks made of stiff material (such as "the material which shall not be named on this forum") that would be perfect.

I usually judge by holding a pick with my thumb on one side and two fingers on the other side, and squeezing it to try to bend it over my thumb. If it takes a lot of force to get just a tiny bit of flexure, it's probably going to be stiff enough. If it bends easily, then it obviously wouldn't be what I would consider a stiff pick. Personal judgment and common sense really have to apply here, when thinking of whether a pick is going to flex when playing.

That said, for the usual materials of modern mandolin picks, I generally stay with 1.4mm (like my Wegen) to 1.6mm.

FWIW, Chris Thile's Homespun video on essential techniques for mandolin has some good material on pick choice, pick grip, and overall right hand technique for playing fast. Love him or hate him, the dude can pick at blistering speeds and knows what he's talking about. It was what originally helped me a lot on getting my right hand up to speed. Always a work in progress, of course.

[Dick Hutchings]

I have it and have watched it recently.

[sgarrity]

A Blue Chip TAD60 will be the best piece of mandolin equipment you'll ever buy.

[Tobin]

A Blue Chip TAD60 will be the best piece of mandolin equipment you'll ever buy.

That's my go-to pick as well. I like to switch picks every now and then, or try new ones. But the one default pick that goes everywhere my mandolin does is my TAD60.

[banjoboy]

Once again, I'm behind DataNick in replying, but I'm agreeing with him! Twisting your hand is the 'doorknob' motion I mentioned earlier that should be avoided.

Looking at your video again, it appears that you don't have a pick guard on that mandolin. But if you could get one on there, I'd recommend trying something. Opening your hand and letting your last three fingers remain loose, with your pinky and maybe even your ring finger lightly brushing the pick guard as your wrist moves in-plane with the top of the mandolin. This will keep your hand from rotating in the dreaded doorknob motion as you pick, ensuring that your wrist is moving in the correct way. The pinky acts as a guide on top of the pick guard, without falling into the bad practice of planting it rigidly in place (which leads to a whole host of new problems).

Frankly, issues regarding the "right" and "wrong" way for playing occurs with every instrument. For instance, when playing banjos, the debate continues about whether or not you have to plant the ring finger. With mando playing, some people flick their wrist, turn their wrist, etc. Some people plant fingers, some brush against the bridge. Some people float their hand over the strings. I used to brush the bridge with the palm of my hand. When I got my new mando, it had a pick guard (which my old one didn't). For some reason, my hand naturally wanted to lightly plant/brush the pick guard. I found that I am more accurate in my picking by doing so. It really gives my hand a reference point. The trick is to not "plant" so much that it causes your wrist to stiffen up.

[DataNick]

Frankly, issues regarding the "right" and "wrong" way for playing occurs with every instrument. For instance, when playing banjos, the debate continues about whether or not you have to plant the ring finger. With mando playing, some people flick their wrist, turn their wrist, etc. Some people plant fingers, some brush against the bridge. Some people float their hand over the strings. I used to brush the bridge with the palm of my hand. When I got my new mando, it had a pick guard (which my old one didn't). For some reason, my hand naturally wanted to lightly plant/brush the pick guard. I found that I am more accurate in my picking by doing so. It really gives my hand a reference point. The trick is to not "plant" so much that it causes your wrist to stiffen up.

Generally speaking, whatever works most comfortably for an individual is usually best, but the OP did request help with "Monroe Style" mandolin technique. You ought to read what Roland White recounts about getting a personal tutorial from Mr. Monroe about the "right" and "wrong" way in regards to his technique.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Dick - I have to say that 'for me'.twin fiddles is THE sound in Bluegrass. As much as i like the banjo /mandolin etc.,when i first heard the Bill Monroe LP that i bought back in '66, "Instrumentals",the twin fiddles which i'd never heard before, sent shivers down my spine - it still does 50 years on.
Re.the picks i use - i've been using a Dunlop 'Primetone' 1.3mm 'teardrop' shaped one for 8 months or more & for me,they're fine. However,on my mandolins,they're in a combo with DR strings which in themsleves have a really good punch,so the combined sound is loud & pretty powerful.
I'd endorse Tobin's remarks about the Chris Thile tuition DVD.It was the only one available over here when i started 9 years ago,but the info.regarding how to hold a pick was worth the price of the DVD in itself. Plus, you get to watch a whole lot of CT playing really 'tuneful' tunes,unlike much of the stuff he does now,which i don't like - purely my taste,
Ivan

[Tobin]

Dick - I have to say that 'for me'.twin fiddles is THE sound in Bluegrass. As much as i like the banjo /mandolin etc.,when i first heard the Bill Monroe LP that i bought back in '66, "Instrumentals",the twin fiddles which i'd never heard before, sent shivers down my spine - it still does 50 years on.

OK, I know this is deviating from the topic at hand, but I love the sound of twin fiddles too. Listening to a recording pales in comparison to hearing it live; there's something in the 'soul' of it that doesn't make it into a recording. I've had the recent pleasure of sitting in a jam with two fantastic fiddlers who play harmony together, and the experience of sitting just a few feet from them while they work together was just awesome. And I mean that in the literal sense: I was in complete awe. No matter the tune we were playing, they pulled it all together. They would lean in towards each other so that their fiddle scrolls were almost touching, looking straight into each others' eyes for some form of communication that no one else could see. That "high lonesome sound" that they produced was indescribable.

As much as I love playing the mandolin, if I could play the fiddle like that with someone who could match that sound, I'd have reached nirvana.

[Dick Hutchings]

Sadly, I'm the only fiddler at my jam most of the time. Next time another fiddler comes over, I'll see if I can get him or her to twin fiddle.

As for picks, honestly I love the sound of a Clayton Gold .88 I think. That brings out the G strings really nice. It doesn't seem to matter on the high strings what I use. I won't be buying a better mandolin as this one I'm playing, I also made from scratch. I have a fresh pile of wood to start a new one soon. Going with an A5 this time.

[sgarrity]

Sorry Dick, if you're really interested in getting some Monroe influence in your playing that pick isn't going to get you there.

[Dick Hutchings]

When I use it, my mandolin sounds just like bills on his recordings. In other words, it sounds great! I'll eventually get a BC but it will probably be the 55 1.2mm as CT recommends. I just bought a pick guard so I'll probably wait a little before buying a BC. Maybe in a week or 2. I don't have a lot of spending money. In the meantime, I'm going to try some 1.2 triangles from different companies. The tear drop 1.2s I have are just a bit to hard to control with this floppy grip.

[Tobin]

I'll eventually get a BC but it will probably be the 55 1.2mm as CT recommends.

If you're talking about the BlueChip CT55, that's 0.055" thick, which is actually 1.4mm. The same thickness that he used to prefer when he was a Wegen advocate.

[Dick Hutchings]

"Used to prefer" What does he prefer now? It doesn't really matter. I'll try some at the next jam. There's at least 3 or 4 guys that have them and hopefully they'll be in different thicknesses.

[sgarrity]

You certainly don't have to have a Blue Chip. There are plenty of other quality picks out there. But a big triangle that is 1.2 - 1.5mm is what you should be looking for. They're easier to hold and are rigid enough to push through the strings. You want the pick to be "floppy" but it is still a controlled movement with great power behind it. If you find the pick hard to control then choke up on it a little more.

[Tobin]

"Used to prefer" What does he prefer now?

I guess what I was trying to say was that he used to prefer a Wegen TF140 (1.4mm), and now he prefers a BlueChip CT55 (also 1.4mm). So although he has changed brands/materials, he has stuck with 1.4mm for a long time.

*edited to add: the bevel on these two picks is pretty similar, being a 'speed bevel'. Regardless of pick thickness, I think the bevel goes a long way in developing speed and fluidity. Obviously, it's not absolutely necessary, but it sure does make the pick glide better while still producing quality tone.

[Ivan Kelsall]

My own experience of 'twin fiddles' is within the context of Irish music. My local Folk Club has 2 terrific fiddle players there each Monday night. OK,it's not Bluegrass but the 'effect' is still the same - awesome !,
Ivan

[Dick Hutchings]

Ivan, I completely agree with that statement but so far, the picks I've used sound like mud on the lower strings where the lighter ones sound great. Maybe when I get a BC I'll feel different. I'm trying to use the heavies even though I don't like the tone. I'm sticking with it. Staying the course. Who said that?