Setup - Need Guidance/Diagnosis

[Tavy]

emmettw: don't be put off by this, we're all flailing around trying to figure out what your issues are without the instrument in hand - which is basically impossible - all we can do is through some ideas out there for you to check.

Re the neck - yes the strings will make the neck bow - and yes the truss rod will need to be set to compensate - you should aim for just a barely detectable amount of relief. push the strings down at fret 1, and at a fret directly above the neck-body join (use a capo for fret one if you run out of hands and fingers), then check for a small gap between frets and strings half way between the two points - that's half way in distance not fret numbers. If as it sounds, there is too much bow, then yes this can cause buzzing, the truss rod will need to be turned clockwise - always turn a very small amount at a time - say 1/8 of a turn and then wait and let everything settle before you check again. The amount of travel/turn in a truss rod is quite small. Don't be scared of the thing, but don't break it either

BTW the amount of neck relief does change with bridge height - the higher the bridge the more forward pull the strings have on the neck, so the more bow you get. Often when the action is high and the bow great, the first step is to get the action down to reduce the force on the neck, and the bow sorts itself out.... but I digress...

[George R. Lane]

emmettw,
Contact Greg Boyd's in Missoula, Mt. he can put you in touch with George Weisel.He does a lot of the repair work for his store. His website is www.gregboyd.com, talk to either Greg or Chad Fadley.

[MysTiK PiKn]

I followed Ivan's suggestions and had a few things "revealed" in the process. The first thing I did was gently lower the tailpiece angle a bit. Now the tops of the strings touch the cover of the tailpiece and the bridge saddle does sit a tad bit lower (still weird) - with the bass side adjusted back to .045" inch since this is where I started out.

Here's an interesting thing though: After I removed the strings and laid a steel ruler across the frets, I could not see any gaps between the ruler and the frets. I then tried to slide the thinnest feeler gauge (.0015") between the ruler and each fret. It would not slide between the ruler and any fret. After I restrung the mandolin and tuned it back up to pitch, I put the steel ruler across the frets again. This time, I could slide the feeler gauge between the ruler from fret #2 up to fret #10. How ironic that this is the same area in which I get the buzzing when I fret those notes?

If I'm thinking logically, this would indicate that the tension from my strings is causing the neck to bow forward, and pulling frets 2 through 10 away from the strings. If this is so, then the only solution would be to tighten the truss rod a little bit right?

I don't see a relationship between the bridge height and the bowed neck. Could there be? Am I on the right track at least?

I've been re-reading. This post is interesting.
The strings at tension are adding "neck relief" - you were able to slide the feeler in. Then you say "How ironic that this is the same area in which I get the buzzing when I fret those notes?"

A little bow is a good thing, even essential. The fretted string must form a note, and also must CLEAR ALL FRETS ABOVE THAT NOTE.
= fail = string is not clearing the upper frets SOMEWHERE. I believe this is indicating a neck hump.

The neck hump is not adjustable - no way - the entire engineering of the mando - attached to body, dovetail joint - this is totally SOLID, it isn't going anywhere.

Change in point of view - you might not have a reverse bow near the lower 1st,2nd,3rd frets - that helps with the fix cos you maybe don't have to worry about that with filing (perhaps a light touch to tie in all frets to make FLAT.

BUT - the neck hump, which should be visible, is what's causing the buzz.

You could try tightening the truss rod as you mentioned, to reduce the bow - you might get lucky if that fully ALIGNS the lower frets, middle frets, upper frets and the potential hump area.

If not, then flat file the hump. The entire fb gets filed - all frets must be filed to perfect flat. A very flat flat flat file is required.

If it's this simple, the amount of fret height reduction is much less. And the amount of crowning is less, and easier.

Crowning can be done with a proper fret file - or - it can be done with other small needle or jewellers files - simply reshape the tops of the frets to a rounded crown.

More radical filing (which mine required) results in frets shaped like steps or stairs - I mean the frets aren't crowned anymore, the become SQUARE - and need recrowning.

Try that truss adjust if you can - it will be easier with reduced string tension - cos you are pulling the neck against the direction of string tension.

Having said that, I think you will still have a neck hump issue. This is easier than the roller coaster I had to deal with.

edit = you can get these files at any hardware usually. cheap. proper crown files are expensive; but not necessarily prohibitive. I bought files because I am doing 3 instruments, and likely will do more in future.

[MysTiK PiKn]

I had trouble trying to get a luthier or repair person to do the work. They didn't want to touch it. One guy kept saying "humidify". He flatly refused. Another guy hated working on mandolins, he recommended someone else. I had a sense that by explaining the problem, I was revealing that I knew too much about it. They might have been avoiding me as a potential problem customer - ie. they do the work, and I say it's not good enough. A whole lot of paranoia was in the area; and that affected communication. I concluded the only way was for me to do my own - mint condition mando, or total wreckage - same thing, same work, same job.

It has taken a lot of time to do it with care. When I got frustrated, I would walk away, maybe for days. All the while, my mind was working to visualize and understand what I was doing - given enough time, the mind knows what to do - but then it has to communicate it to me. A few times, I was watching tv, and suddenly went to look at and work on the mando. This was the strange process I went through - and it worked. Patience and research - it's takes time for all this to sink in. It's the "stranger in a strange land" thing. Wait for the solution - then go to work. If you don't know the problem = stop.

and this is difficult to communicate.

I would recommend Robert Fear at folkmusician.com - He has a great work ethic and a lot of sincerity. When I first got my mando I contacted him, cos I had read his stuff on this forum. I asked a stupid question; he treated it with respect. I get a good feeling from him.

I had no warranty. Mine is a couple years old. Bought originally from Elderly (expert setup? really???) by a guy in Montreal. It got sold to a reseller. Then it was my turn. Oriiginal sale in US not transferable warranty to CA.

Nobody EVER addressed these problems on my mando - the buck stopped here. Thanks to me. Expert setup doesn't include this. This is fret dressing - at it's worst. The alt is fb planing and refret. Read frets.com re planing a gibson F5. Great view, and relevant.
I keep telling people to read frets.com.

[Emmett Marshall]

emmettw,
Contact Greg Boyd's in Missoula, Mt. he can put you in touch with George Weisel.He does a lot of the repair work for his store. His website is www.gregboyd.com, talk to either Greg or Chad Fadley.

Will definitely give him a call! Thank you!

[Ivan Kelsall]

One thing i might have mentioned in my first post was the truss rod adjustment. I asked Weber re.their neck set up shortly after i bought my Weber "Fern". They told me that they send their mandolins out with a 'flat' fingerboard = no 'relief'. So,you could start by adjusting the truss rod to bring the neck 'dead flat' under string tension,as from what you've described,it's bowing upwards under tension. Once you done that,& it might only take a half turn on the TR to do it,check everything again. If the problem still occurs, then certainly seek some pro.help,
Ivan

[Emmett Marshall]

... So,you could start by adjusting the truss rod to bring the neck 'dead flat' under string tension,as from what you've described,it's bowing upwards under tension. Once you done that,& it might only take a half turn on the TR to do it,check everything again. If the problem still occurs, then certainly seek some pro.help...

That's the plan Ivan. I'm waiting for my truss rod nut wrench to arrive, then I am going to see what happens. If that doesn't fix it, I'll be shipping it out. Thank you for all the great advice on this problem...it has helped me a lot.

[MysTiK PiKn]

That's a good safe plan. It just depends on what moves w the truss. Keep track of what you change - so you can undo if needed. Good luck.

Did this problem just recently develop; or has it been there for a while?

[Emmett Marshall]

It just depends on what moves w the truss.

Exactly. Now that I have an "illegal" Fern, I have to take good care of it.

Did this problem just recently develop; or has it been there for a while?

It started shortly after it was returned to me from a shop in Nashville where I had the Florida scooped out. I'm thinking humidity might have gotten the best of it. It's about 37% here, and it was much higher there. At home, I kept it cased with a humidity level above 40% in the case.

[CES]

Elderly Instruments, The Mandolin Store, Gruhn's, and Carter vintage, as well as those mentioned otherwise, would be good options. Good luck!

You could also touch base with the he shop that scooped your extension as well, though given the time frame, maybe not. Hope it's not one of the places I mentioned...

[MysTiK PiKn]

I really don't get it with the mando being in various shops for this and that and nobody doing a simple $60-70 fret dress - especially if it's being $hipped all over the place. I've heard on this forum recently that ship can cost $60 one way? Is that right? Who is going to look after my interests?
I burned myself by abandoning my own principles. But I really don't see how it's possible for instrument sellers to sell like this - where people just order something they've never played - and it comes with some kind of socalled "setup" which may or may not include various aspects of what COULD be called "setup". Fret dress is often not included. It tends to be a separate item. And yet any "refret" calls for flat file and crown - guess what >> brand new is the first "refret". Those new frets are not level. Fretwork is often the difference in a hot unit vs a mediocre unit. Mine was like a dead crow; now it has new life. With square frets - not even crowned yet. I was never done - I have the original bill of sale. My frets were full height - very tall. It came from Elderly where they advertise "Expert Setup" with new units. Fretwork seems to be not included. People don't know - some of the reactions in this thread demonstrate that. I'm ok with that; it's shocking to "hack" file a mint mando. It scared me too.

When I bought my own, I barely looked at it - contrary to my usual approach - because the seller said he had "set it up", and he said "I am a luthier". So I invested in trust - trust is only good until trust is broken. What was done re setup => the bridge was cranked up mile high maximum - what for? - to hide the buzz. (sound familiar?)
My seller went out of town just as I was picking it up. A month later I said I wanted money back, and threw his "setup" concept at him. He agreed to refund. But then he got goofy. In disgust I decided I really wanted this mando, and said goodbye to him. After that month of stress, I took ownership, and then started my own setup. I have also been intensely studying everything involved in this - so it's been an interesting educational experience. But now I can do my own Full Setups as required. Or occasional adjustments. I like that. I'm not the only one here.

I mentioned Robert Fear of "folkmusician.com". He is the only one I have seen that advertises instruments "FULLY SETUP". Those words appear on his instruments here in the Classifieds. The savings in return SHIPPING makes it worthwhile; offsetting costs, if any???. His website has a detailed description of setup work he does. His business seems to be unique in that manner. The others I have seen use various phrases indicating somehow setup - no details. Before I got into doing my own, I found myself wishing Robert Fear was in Canada, so I could go or send to him. And for these reasons, I recommended him here.

But backing up here - the rule has always been - don't buy it until you play it. That seems to have gone out the window. And the one time I lowered my guard, I got burned. I'm usually a very cautious, very picky, haggler. But I wanted it too much. (oops)

This is not about pac rim units. I have seen "unplayables" in most major brands, hanging on store walls - fulltime "buzzers", warped necks, twisted necks, the entire list, "for sale". Seems to me people don't know how to say NO. Casualties of the digital era? I suppose it's good for the "economy". I think the price should be for the real deal; and if that boosts the price, so what = a lot of time and money can be wasted whining, crying, shipping, wondering, guessing, worrying, cursing, etc. For the "beginners" it means they will give up and just quit. It just isn't right. And so we have threads like this one, and there are many others related directly or indirectly.

end of short novel.

[Emmett Marshall]

Mystik - I really "hear" you man! I understand you! I relate! I empathize! I am willing to take on your pain! - as you have taken on mine! "So-called" setups are really out there and happening as we speak! It is a widespread cancer in Mandoland. And you are right on the money. I don't know if it's that some just don't want to take the time, or just flat out do not care? It "seems" sometimes that the luthiers that "could" REALLY go over a mandolin, and not let it leave the shop in less than it's "best" possible playing condition, are either too busy, too backlogged, or are disinterested in working on anything that will pay less than several hundred Blue Chips. (our newest form of currency)

For me, if it wasn't for mail order, I'd be doing without a lot of things. Being Canadian, I am sure you can guess what kind of place Williston, North Dakota is? Music store? I don't think so. Luthier? What's that? If it isn't about oil or oats, it ain't happening here. I had to take the gal at the post office to dinner and buy her fudge because she handles so many packages for me. Try before I buy just isn't an option right now. By the way, I've been watching videos on fret dressing and crowning. It really seems like fun, yet something that would also be easy to "overdo" if not careful or experienced.

If this wasn't a public forum, I would share with you some of the things that have been said to me about "setup" and my KM1500. It sometimes makes me wonder if some people who claim their mandolin came with a great setup just got lucky that the manufacturer sold a "good one" to such and such dealer, and almost nothing had to be done to it before it got into the customer's hands?

In any case, I am still on the "lookout" for a "go to" luthier that I can TRUST to really do things thoroughly, correctly, and actually look out for me when they have my mandos in their shop. I would pay pretty well for that type of work ethic. I think most of us would. In the meantime, I'll try to learn how to do the most basic stuff myself. I love how Rob Meldrum says in his ebook that if you follow (paraphrasing) his procedures, you'll wind up with a better setup than many, [so called], luthiers would do for you. I believe it. I've been there. It's kind of like the quickie oil change places that only let your old oil drain out for about 10 seconds before they fill up your engine with new oil. Lots of crap gets left behind and ignored.

[Jackgaryk]

good grief emmettw....is this the same mandolin you bought with the truss rod cover issue?

[MysTiK PiKn]

I don't know, Emmett. It's not about bashing luthiers. This is low level stuff. Basic even. And I don't understand how, who, what whatever is the process from manufacturer to seller, and all the steps in between. But it seems that the buck gets passed right down the line in some cases, and the customer says "my mando don work right". I can't help but think, hope, and pray, or meditate, and launch into the universe that people are not enjoying the ride, and we can all do better. Really, stop the world, take a look, and tell me who likes this, and honestly feels good about it.
This isn't about bashing, that's just some useless reaction - long after the fact. It's more about understanding what's needed and genuinely desired, what people need, and delivering quality. And like I said, I only know one who's doing that; but there are doubtless many others, and quality is expressed individually. And these are the ones we all want to deal with, even if we are not yet aware of how the industry works, or where these people are. It's as simple as putting it on the menu or simply announcing it, building it in with the price. That can be a hard sell if everybody goes shopping price, rather than quality. There's a strong need for building education into the sale, and then carry that through warranty policy, etc. It's not as easy as it sounds to the demanding public. The public needs to own what they are adding to this mix. Everyone has to get paid, the happiness trail all the way down the line. When the line is broken, everything else is broken, and it's another black friday - junk for sale cheap. I like clean upfront business; rather than a hog farm race for the big cookie. Really, it's about Quality. Top to bottom. A little genuine sincerity goes a long way too. What we have instead is a parade of scared people that don't know they are victims of this chaos. This is some new style of business; based on the old style. The digital revolution has no soul, no conscience, no character, no guts, and no backbone. Just push play, and cover yer butt. But the tek only runs my life when I say it's ok. It's really about me; and I am tired of bashing myself by indulging in a social need to undermine - whad evvah. Welcome to the insane world, and the insane harvest. Back to basics education - don't get me started on that one. It's not just the mandolin world either. Much of socalled evolution, is actually a process of degeneration. And much of socalled degeneration is actually a process of evolution. It's a balance; but it's out of balance. Conscience is the only safe guide; and that is about aggression rather than guilt. Follow your true interests. Create your world; it will be immune to all the 2nd-rate rest; and there is no rest there, for sure.
On topic of this thread, the information is all available - make the best choice for you. Pay yourself somehow, by getting what you need. Anything else is just a victim role. There are many available choices.
Quality. Everything has it's qualities. Choose yours, and pay yourself through that endless process.

[Emmett Marshall]

good grief emmettw....is this the same mandolin you bought with the truss rod cover issue?

Hi there Jack. I wound up returning that one and having a replacement sent to me. This is the replacement. The "Saga" (pun intended) unfortunately continues. I'm not giving up though. I am determined to stand by this mandolin in sickness and health. I received a truss rod wrench today, so tomorrow I'll know if adjusting the neck is going to help. If it doesn't help, I'll send the mandolin off to an expert and get back a player. While it's gone, I might just have to build my own mandolin - the likes of which the world has never seen. I'll use a giraffe bone for the neck, a fossilized T. Rex testicle for the nut, and a hand carved sculpture of Venus for the body. I need something that will play!

[Emmett Marshall]

Hi MystiK, I definitely get where you are coming from. I want to apologize to you for my pac-rim comment the other day. I guess I needed something to blame for my "Kentucky Woes" - (title of my new song). I started with a KM-675 and I still love it. That is the reason I decided to "upgrade" to a KM-1500. I do believe the KM-1500 has the potential for a really nice sound - once it gets the attention that it needs. I was just very frustrated with the leaning bridge and buzzing. You're right, lots of a great advice given on this problem and now I'm taking full responsibility instead of blaming others. I'm really enjoying the "learning" as well.

I'm not bashing either. I'm just seeing "the problem." Years ago, you could pull into a "service" station. Your windshield would get washed, your oil would get checked, and your fuel would be pumped. Today, it's 99% "self service." I remember my mother having to learn how to operate a fuel pump for the very first time.

By the way, have you crowned your frets yet?

[MysTiK PiKn]

No need for apologies, Emmett. I'm just trying encourage a clean discussion. We are sitting in the Builder's Forum - and I wanted that to be clear. I don't see any issues with the people in this forum. We are all here to help each other; otherwise, what's the point. The builders here are not major corporations. I really don't know anything about all that. Some of them are very highly involved in the more technical aspects of luthiery. This stuff that I'm doing is basic repair work, fretwork. And I am interested in learning more; I just follow my interests.

Crowning files - I found them in my mailbox today. Just have to figure out how to use them now. I was thinking I might practice on my beater mando; but I might just go for the real thing.

Flat Filing - I've done several gentle sessions with the flat file. The first session showed the pattern I figured was there, after sighting the neck, and studying what exactly was buzzing. I restring and play after every session, also do a quick smoothing cos those frets can feel sharp. Next session I had to go higher up the neck to make sure I got all the hump out of it - buzzing was happening at the 15th fret. That was a surprise actually. At the other end, the 1-3 frets were mostly ok, then a low area in the 5-7 area. Then the hump. It got a little scary at that point. But I found the right truss rod location, and got it real close. Another session closer again. But playing was still buzzy slightly. Kinda strange cos files squared off frets will buzz anyway, but not much. But it needed a touch more in the 12-15 region. All these sessions, were very light, except one where I really had to cut the hump. The rest I was balancing the file, rocking it over slight high spots, like a straight edge, and then hold it just the right spot, and barely press, sometimes just the weight of the file itself. The endless trials, tune, detune, tune detune, quick set the bridge, use the tuner (tedious but necessary) and then play it.
When it got good, I played with bridge lower, a more severe test.
Then I used the truss and bridge to deliberately make it buzz - crazy stuff to test my progress.
Last night I did one more light flat filing - and the entire fb just lit up - consistent from bottom to top - like a silver stairway to heaven. . My trussrods test were down to less than 1/8 at a time adjusted. It was less than 1/8 to offset the string tension.
And I was lowering the bridge in some of the previous tests also. All these tedious tests, re-intonate bridge, tune up, tuner, testdrive. I was really clear on what was happening.

The fret crowning files arrived today. Set of 3 for narrow, medium, wide. Double-edged. I've wanted these for years. The trick now is to delete the squared edges of the frets, while leaving the very middle of the fret untouched. John Kelly suggested mark them with something, can't recall - like a marking pen - leave the middle of the marks on, untouched. I think I might start with the scoop end, to get the feel of them. They likely cut fairly quickly. I think it will be more tedious fun - gotta love this stuff, and keep the end result in mind.
Another kind of "Saga" - pun intended.
And that's all I got for now. There'a pix of the files in my JAPARTS thread.
.

[John Kelly]

MP says: "The fret crowning files arrived today. Set of 3 for narrow, medium, wide. Double-edged. I've wanted these for years. The trick now is to delete the squared edges of the frets, while leaving the very middle of the fret untouched. John Kelly suggested mark them with something, can't recall - like a marking pen - leave the middle of the marks on, untouched. I think I might start with the scoop end, to get the feel of them. They likely cut fairly quickly. I think it will be more tedious fun - gotta love this stuff, and keep the end result in mind."

The marker is one of the spirit ones with the felt-tip end, for writing on whiteboards (I was an English teacher before I retired) and either black or dark blue shows up well. One thing to be careful with, MysTiK, is to make a protector for the mandolin body for when you are crowning the frets over the body of the mando. It is very easy to slip with the file and dent your instrument, especially on the first few times you carry out the crowing process. I use thin plastic card, but thin ply or other material will do and I just take a sheet of card of suitable size to protect the body around the frets and cut out a slot which will fit over the fingerboard. This saves the cursing when the file slips. Don't ask how i know!

[MysTiK PiKn]

MP says: "The fret crowning files arrived today. Set of 3 for narrow, medium, wide. Double-edged. I've wanted these for years. The trick now is to delete the squared edges of the frets, while leaving the very middle of the fret untouched. John Kelly suggested mark them with something, can't recall - like a marking pen - leave the middle of the marks on, untouched. I think I might start with the scoop end, to get the feel of them. They likely cut fairly quickly. I think it will be more tedious fun - gotta love this stuff, and keep the end result in mind."

The marker is one of the spirit ones with the felt-tip end, for writing on whiteboards (I was an English teacher before I retired) and either black or dark blue shows up well. One thing to be careful with, MysTiK, is to make a protector for the mandolin body for when you are crowning the frets over the body of the mando. It is very easy to slip with the file and dent your instrument, especially on the first few times you carry out the crowing process. I use thin plastic card, but thin ply or other material will do and I just take a sheet of card of suitable size to protect the body around the frets and cut out a slot which will fit over the fingerboard. This saves the cursing when the file slips. Don't ask how i know!

Hi, John. Thanks for dropping in.

I have a good black felt tipped one for marking. I also have some coloured highliters but I am not sure if they are heavy enough.

Re protection: Good idea. While flat filing, I just used an old sweatshirt mainly to cover the body. That worked ok; but I got a little reckless near the end of the process - not bad tho, the file was always focused on top of the neck - but I noticed it hovering above the fully undressed body - wow, this sounds pretty kinky.

I was also going to refer to your previous post to me, for some of the fine points presented there.
I might use some padding somehow, to help hold the mandolin from rocking. I'm just working on a soft carpet floor - the bench in my garage is a disaster area, and has far too much junk and oil and grease from my tractor exploits. No heat in there either. It's been a slow spring here in Ontario; but next few days are supposed to warm up.

But yes, work out some cardboard protective device fitted around neck area.

These files have a slightly heavy feel to them, depending on the contact point - front contact tends to pull downward slightly - rear contact is very light. I'll probably get a good feel for them soon enough. But I haven't started at all. I did a little crowning about 10 yrs ago; so I think I will tune right into it fairly quickly. First step will be to figure which file to use. Probably medium. Maybe thin. I will have to test. Yes, I will have to remain patient. I have put a lot of effort into sorting this neck out. I just have to bring it home now. No rush. Do, watch, and learn.

Thx again for your help, John.

[P Josey]

I haven't read all the posts here so disregard if I'm repeating someone's suggestion. Some times the string slot in the nut or bridge may not be quite right and a string will buzz. Once you finger a string it cancels the nut out as a problem. Have you checked the slots in the bridge. Could need a bit of fine tuning just in the bridge slots.

[Emmett Marshall]

I was watching this guy last night. He's working on an expensive Lloyd Loar. He makes fret dressing and leveling look so intuitive and easy. You may have already seen it, but if not, the actual dressing starts around 5:22.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxneuUGUlfE

And I just may have found a perfect luthier to care for my family:

My kinda Guy

[Emmett Marshall]

I haven't read all the posts here so disregard if I'm repeating someone's suggestion. Some times the string slot in the nut or bridge may not be quite right and a string will buzz. Once you finger a string it cancels the nut out as a problem. Have you checked the slots in the bridge. Could need a bit of fine tuning just in the bridge slots.

Yes. Thanks! I did check the slots on the nut and the bridge and they don't seem to be a factor. Everything seems to be pointing to the neck at this time. I'll know more pretty soon.