Microphone for Live Application

[junglejem]

I am hoping to go exclusively with a microphone for the mandolin in live situations. I play in a primarily acoustic band, and thus far feedback does not seem to be a serious issue. Our stage volume is not that outrageous. At this juncture, I only own two extra mics (other than my vocal mic), a Shure SM57 and a Shure Elvis mic (I forget the model number)...neither of which seem to be ideal. So I'm on the hunt for a good microphone for the mandolin. Ideally (although not a deal-breaker) I'd like to have an on/off switch, as I switch between mandolin and 6 and 12 string acoustic guitars. When I'm not playing mandolin, I don't need the mic.

I'm sure many of you have lots of experience and opinions regarding mics, and I'd appreciate some guidance on getting started.

[mandroid]

A lot of small diaphragm Condensers will be Fine .

NB: You can replace the Microphone cable end with one of Nutrik's with a switch.

http://www.parts-express.com/neutrik...witch--092-080

that will solve the switch requirement opening up the Mic options.

AKG , and Rode both offer onboard 9v battery or phantom powered Mics
for places without the phantom juice for the capacitors , from the PA.
[Because there is an internal battery, those have an on/off switch to save the battery]

if power is reliably there .. I bought a pair of these. http://www.rode.com/microphones/nt5
since then they came out with a lower cost version http://www.rode.com/microphones/m5

I dont have the vast background in live performance other Cafe posters have.

[Mandoplumb]

What is the problem with the 57, I've good luck using one with about any acoustic instrument.

[almeriastrings]

The old standby SM57 (provided it is a genuine example, not a fake) is a perfectly fine instrument mic. They are are very forgiving, work with just about any mixer with no problems at all, and used correctly, sound absolutely fine. Many performers specify them and like them. Hard to go wrong with an SM57...

You can get more gain before feedback with the Beta57, but only if you reposition any stage/floor monitors. The Beta57 is a very good mic, too.

There are also lots of condenser mics that can work well, from $100 models up to a KM-140 ($1,400). Whether they work better for you or not in any given situation depends on a large number of variables (ambient acoustics, monitors, stage volume, etc.) and your own ears and instrument. I often use a Shure SM94 for mandolin, guitar and fiddle. It is a very solid, reliable mic that works well in a live situation, however, as stated, there are lots of alternatives out there. There is not really a 'universal best' - it comes down to what works for you and suits you best. I am also quite partial to the Neumann KMS-105 and Shure KSM9HS as live instrument mics, though they are marketed as a vocal mic.

[dhbailey]

The placement of the mic in relation to the instrument is very important -- even a very expensive mic used incorrectly will not sound great. I suggest experimenting with the angle and distance of the mic to the mandolin before spending extra money. If you do decide to but a different mic and you buy one which has an internal battery, take the battery out after each use. I used to work in a music store and quite often we would get people bringing in condenser mics which had internal batteries and they hadn't been used in a long time and the batteries had leaked all over the inside, corroding things beyond repair. Admittedly battery technology has improved since then, but batteries can still leak. And even with an on/off switch, there can be a tiny battery drain, so removing the battery after every use can extend the life of the battery and the mic.

[Charlieshafer]

Just had a show this past week where we miced an archtop guitar with a condenser, and there was actually too much information, with pick noise, and a very strange twangy harsh sound. After switching to the even more venerable sm58, it sounded great. The one good thing about NOT using condensers (and I do have about 20, so this isn't an issue of not liking them) for instruments in this situation is that the musician has a LOT more control over volume than with a condenser that will be more sensitive. Shading is a lot easier. Stand 6-8 inches away for more volume, 16-20 for a lot less. With a condenser, the larger area of sensitivity means you're at a more consistent volume in a relatively confined area, and that's with cardioid configurations.

Overall, even with instruments, I find we use 58's more than anything else by a wide margin especially when augmented by clip on microphones, and s.d.c's used for very specific applications away from other sound sources (maybe toss one in a piano, for example). Large diaphragm condensers stay at home for the most part, as musicians who really know how to use them bring their own, and those who don't need to practice before getting in front of one.

[Mandoplumb]

That's been my experience with condenser mics they can sound harsh if not properly controlled, a studio is a much better place for them IMHO.

[almeriastrings]

"Harshness" could possibly result from several things:

1. SDC's tend to have an extended HF response compared to a typical dynamic (>20kHz vs. 15kHz or so).
2. They have a far 'hotter' output, so can cause overloads/clipping on the preamp if the input trim is not correctly adjusted.
3. SDC's have a very fast transient response, so you may hear stuff that is less obvious with a 'slower' mic.

None of these properties is a fault or deficiency - can be quite the reverse - but it does mean they require different settings than a more 'forgiving' dynamic. There is a reason to have a reasonable selection of different microphones available, as you can experiment, and can use whatever suits the particular situation.It may not always be the most obvious, or the most expensive.

My own "live" mic locker, right now, for example has (several of each in some cases):

AKG D5 (Dynamic, vocal)
Blue Encore 100 (Dynamic)
Blue Encore 100i (Dynamic, instrument)
Blue Encore 200 (Dynamic, vocal)
Audix VX-5 (Condenser, vocal)
Shure SM94 (Condenser, instrument)
Shure Beta57 (Dynamic, instrument)
Shure Beta58 (Dynamic, vocal)
Shure Beta27 (LD condenser, instrument, hypercardiod)
Shure KSM44 (LD condenser, multi-pattern)
Blue Encore 300 (Condenser, vocal)
Rode M3 (Condenser, multi-purpose)
AT PRO35 (Condenser, clip on)
AT ATM350 (Condenser, clip on)

Which of these gets hauled out very much depends on circumstances. They're all good mics and have their uses.

[foldedpath]

It's worth noting that all of us who play with clip-on mics are using condenser mics, and in many cases they work quite well.


I also prefer small diaphragm condenser mics when using an external mic on a stand when playing live (preferably a KM184), so tastes do vary. To me, a SM57 sounds muddy. I know it's the default mic for live sound and very popular worldwide, but it's just not the sound I'm going for. I like the "air" frequencies and detail of a good small diaphragm condenser, and I know how to EQ if it gets a little harsh on the high end. Your mileage may vary, depending on what other instruments you might be trying to blend with, the overall quality of the PA system, and so on.

One other thing.... the OP mentioned that it would be nice to have an on/off switch. That's easy with a dynamic mic like the SM57, where you can just use a cable with a built-in switch on the plug. You can't do that with a condenser mic without getting a big "POP!" through the PA if the mic is live. Very nasty... same thing as unplugging a condenser mic on a live channel. With condenser mics, you need either a special foot muting switch like a ProCo "Sign Off" that can work with condenser mics, or a floor preamp with phantom power and a mute switch (for tuning) like the TC G-Natural pedal. It's possible, it just takes a little more work with a condenser mic.

[Mandoplumb]

Almerstrings I agree 100%. different mics have different uses and problems in setting them up. At a live gig I usually have limited time to set up so I tend to use the most forgiving mic. In a lot of cases I use one ribbon mic through a tube pre amp. Ring out the system and you're ready to go no sound check and no trying to balance multiple mics.

[Charlieshafer]

My main point was that you just don't know what's going to sound best in a given application until you get there. That same condenser has been used to great effect on a number of instruments, but on this one, and the way this guy played, it didn't work. If you're just worrying about yourself, you figure it out in short order, but if you're micing lots of different players, you need to keep an open mind. Especially when they're all powerful players, simple eq'ing on the board isn't enough necessarily.

[junglejem]

Thanks, folks. Excellent, thoughtful information.

[mandroid]

Seeing AKG D 8000 selling pretty cheap .. maybe a Punk vocal adequate ? 2 fer 1 maybe a close out,
Since I dont see them on current. AKG.com site

[ code: D dynamic- C condenser, then there's the P ??? ]

[almeriastrings]

They are a derivative (recycling?) of the old AKG D60. Essentially a 'consumer' mic, in the 'cheap' bracket. Not terrible, but nothing to write home about, either. Think Shure Prologue range.... same concept. Same market.

[mandroid]

Ended Up ordering a Rode M3.. for my own use.

[almeriastrings]

Rode M3 - excellent. Really nice microphone. I have two of them, and they are much nicer than the AKG C1000 (which they resemble) and very useful both for recording and live. Very well made, too. Work well on loads of sources.

[mandotim1955]

Good choice. If you are looking for more live mics (and you will be!) it's worth looking for the AKG Perception 170. The Perception series are underrated, and this particular mic is very good indeed. I bought a pair, with a stereo bar and mic stand for £95. A little more expensive now, but an excellent, well built 'Swiss Army' mic for live use.

[mandotim1955]

Re the above post; apparently AKG have now discontinued the P170, but they are available at very good prices as dealers get rid of their stocks.