Mandolin Tone Map

[StuartE]

A tone map wouldn't have to be a bit of marketing bs. It could be done scientifically. In fact, it has been done for violins.

Performers often discuss the sound quality of a violin or the sound obtained by particular playing techniques, calling upon a diverse vocabulary. This study explores the verbal descriptions, made by performers, of the distinctive timbres of different violins. Sixty-one common descriptors were collected and then arranged by violinists on a map, so that words with similar meanings lay close together, and those with different meanings lay far apart. The results of multidimensional scaling demonstrated consistent use among violinists of many words, and highlighted which words are used for similar purposes. These terms and their relations were then used to investigate the perceptual effect of acoustical modifications of violin sounds produced by roving of the levels in five one-octave wide bands, 190–380, 380–760, 760–1520, 520–3040, and 3040–6080 Hz. Pairs of sounds were presented, and each participant was asked to indicate which of the sounds was more bright, clear, harsh, nasal, or good (in separate runs for each descriptor). Increased brightness and clarity were associated with moderately increased levels in bands 4 and 5, whereas increased harshness was associated with a strongly increased level in band 4. Judgments differed across participants

Interestingly, the participants differed on whether they like a "nasal" tone or not.

The paper is not the easiest read as it is an academic project. But anyone interested in pursuing the idea of mandolin tone map might find it a worthwhile read.

[Bertram Henze]

Let me explore this single malt analogy a little bit more into what we are getting ourselves into if we apply it to the mandolin.

I am not really a friend of diagrams in this field, because they tend to be used by people who
- want it to look scientific to impress their peers,
- have obviously no idea how diagrams work in science,
- hope that their peers are just as clueless as themselves.
That's a technique frequently used by management consultants, and their objectives may vary wildly but never include honesty, so they prefer paradigms that pose as simple truth but never are. And this is not what I want. If I draw a diagram, there has to be metrics in it and the units used, but how do you measure peaty, rich, light, delicate - or woody, come to that?

That's why I prefer reviews for single malts, because they
- are entertaining,
- show clearly the mutual influence of reviewer and single malt and what depends on what,
- reflect the difference in perception between reviewers - it doesn't get more honest than that.
Watch these two reviews on the same single malt, and imagine what similar reviews on the same mandolin could reveal (about the mandolin and the reviewer)

[Bigtuna]

Interesting that my fav (Oban) is dead-center...
I might have put it more north-east...

So-ooo, what's dead-center in the mando world?

Agreed Oban is one of my favorites and I wouldn't put it dead center. When I think of Oban I think saltiness with a slight note of peat. Thus I would also put it more north east as well. If the group can't decide what the four sides would be, the placement of mandolins within it may be impossible to agree on.

[OldSausage]

Agreed Oban is one of my favorites and I wouldn't put it dead center. When I think of Oban I think saltiness with a slight note of peat. Thus I would also put it more north east as well. If the group can't decide what the four sides would be, the placement of mandolins within it may be impossible to agree on.

Well of course it would be impossible to agree on. Otherwise we could just have one person tell us what each mandolin was like and we could all finally go home.

[UsuallyPickin]

IMO Quadrants are Tone divided into ring and pop and build divided into materials and fit .... playability can most always be adjusted to suit if the neck width and depth are acceptable ..... Cost can be addressed with different grids as in bleow 1,000.00$ between 1,000.00$ and 3,000.00$ etc ..... putting a Loar Gibson on the same chart as a The Loar isn't really helpful ........ putting one with a Gil or a Dude adds interest to the opinion .... because we all have one ... R/

[JeffD]

It is easier to learn Get Up John than to make headway on this project.

Fun though.

[JeffD]

Instead of trying to define a center and put all the mandolins on one chart, right off, maybe just put two mandolins on. Relative to each other. Then another chart with two other mandolins.

Then after we have done several pairs, compare two- one from each chart. Then all the relationships will come together, without the need to define a center.

[Marty Jacobson]

Instead of trying to define a center and put all the mandolins on one chart, right off, maybe just put two mandolins on. Relative to each other. Then another chart with two other mandolins.

Then after we have done several pairs, compare two- one from each chart. Then all the relationships will come together, without the need to define a center.

Or you could do a Pairwise Comparison Chart, which is used for exactly these kinds of complex comparisons in real life. They really need something which can be measured, and then the metrics assessed relative to each other, but in a pinch, an organized system of subjective judgments is likely to be more interesting than a placement on two non-empirical axes. This would be a good way for an individual to a/b compare a mess of instruments and decide for certain which one they want to buy (or sell from their collection). But beyond that, I don't know how much use it would have.

[Andrew B. Carlson]

Instead of trying to define a center and put all the mandolins on one chart, right off, maybe just put two mandolins on. Relative to each other. Then another chart with two other mandolins.

Then after we have done several pairs, compare two- one from each chart. Then all the relationships will come together, without the need to define a center.

Wow, this escalated quickly. And I thought I was in over my head before!

I like the idea of doing it in pairs, then once having many pairs compared to each other, try to combine them all somehow.

Still seems like if they can do it with scotch, we can do it with mandolins. I'm sure there's a lot of subjectivity with scotch tasting. I'm more of a Laphroaig man myself.

[JeffD]

Laphroaig. Well then, yes. I think Andrew we likely have a lot in common. We should get together and drink about it.

Am I going out on a limb to guess that your second favorite is Taliskers?

[JeffD]

Watch these two reviews on the same single malt, and imagine what similar reviews on the same mandolin could reveal (about the mandolin and the reviewer)

The first reviewer made me want to take notes. The second made me want to pour a glass.

The first review I could share a glass with, the second one I could see singing with at the bar. And I can't sing.

[Andrew B. Carlson]

Laphroaig. Well then, yes. I think Andrew we likely have a lot in common. We should get together and drink about it.

Am I going out on a limb to guess that your second favorite is Taliskers?

Actually, I'd put The Balvenie Doublewood second. Different, but mmmmm....

[Bertram Henze]

Am I going out on a limb to guess that your second favorite is Taliskers?

Caol Ila here.

[Bertram Henze]

The first review I could share a glass with, the second one I could see singing with at the bar.

Agree, but I'd make sure the second one couldn't accidentally fall on me.

[Toni Schula]

My mandolin map:


To the OP - determining the four definitive parameters is the hard part.

Sounds like a fun project for someone who lives next to a Elderly's or something similar

Would that graph be a straight line from lower left to upper right corner?

At least in an ideal "you get what you pay for" world?

Or in reality a big S shaped curve, where some of the budget models don't sound too bad at all, while you still can spend any higher amount of money at the top end without getting essentially better sound?

[Andrew B. Carlson]

You got a sample of these types of graphs?

[fatt-dad]

I consider efficiency as a defining trait. Just how hard is it to get the instrument producing sound? How difficult throughout the dynamic range.

I don't really know how to place the words. I observe, "tinny" versus, "woody." I observe, "tubby" versus, "focus" (e.g., paddle head 12-fret versus f-hole 15-fret).

So, that leaves me with three binary choices or an 8-pointed chart of some ilk, I guess. . . ?

f-d

[9lbShellhamer]

I consider efficiency as a defining trait. Just how hard is it to get the instrument producing sound? How difficult throughout the dynamic range.

I don't really know how to place the words. I observe, "tinny" versus, "woody." I observe, "tubby" versus, "focus" (e.g., paddle head 12-fret versus f-hole 15-fret).

So, that leaves me with three binary choices or an 8-pointed chart of some ilk, I guess. . . ?

f-d

I really like the "tinny" vs "woody", or even "metallic" versus "woody", comparison, because I think it sounds more defined and objective. the wet dry comparison is very ambiguous, but woody and tinny are very defined for me personally.

I'd like to further the "closed" versus "open" descriptors or the tubby vs whatever, bright, dark, etc. arena. I think dark and tight are similar. Open seems to relate to volume for me...This stuff is so subjective, but I like hearing all the chatter regardless.

[JeffD]

Agree, but I'd make sure the second one couldn't accidentally fall on me.

OTOH if you use the word "smooth" the first one will pop you one in the face.

[JeffD]

How about this: we collect sound clips, and then argue about where the sound clips would fit on the chart. If we can't agree on what we hear when listening to the same thing, we haven't a chance.

[OldSausage]

But first we'd have to argue about whether you can tell anything from sound clips. Largely because of the difficulty in measuring relative volume, and assessing the way the recording equipment and process has affected eq, I would suggest that you cannot.

[Petrus]

Don't forget to include a "butter" axis.

[Michael Bridges]

I think if we just keep drinking scotch the whole thing will resolve itself, one way or another.

[OldSausage]

Because I'm a web developer I could quite easily set up a website where people could enter the make and model of their instrument and rate it on a small number of dimensions, and we could easily graph the results 6 ways till Tuesday. But as my time, patience and enthusiasm are limited, my question is, would anybody bother to actually go and fill it in? My intuition says no more than about 6 people would. Am I wrong?

[Andrew B. Carlson]

I would. But that probably goes without saying.