Mandolin Tone Map

[Andrew B. Carlson]

I'm a scotch fan. Smoky, peaty, strong, weak, whatever. Many scotch aficionado web sites create flavor maps for scotch, which places a particular scotch at a point in the map/graph based on their 'expert' experience.

Here's an example.

Could we try this for mandolins? There are so many threads asking about the tonal qualities of various mandolin models, I figure if we create a Mandolin Tone Map, and use reviews from experienced players, it could really help out those who are considering a new mando.

This would, of course, result in many "in the ear of the beholder comments", but if they can do it with scotch, we can do it with mandolins.

I for one, would not consider myself to have enough hands on experience with lots of different makes and models of mandolins. Although I've plays a Gil, a Heiden and even a real 1924 Loar, they were far between, so I couldn't develop an ear for their tonal qualities.

I could try to create the square "map" with 4 tone qualities that we wish to evaluate. I'm not super tech savvy, but I'll give it a shot.

What qualities would we want to see on those 4 sides? 'Woody' and 'Open' come to mind....

[Bigtuna]

Great idea! Scotch, scotch, scotch, I love scotch! Peaty and rich fits my flavor profile. Ardbeg Uigeadail is my current favorite. As far as tone qualities go narrowing it down to four that everyone can agree to may be difficult. My suggestions would be: dry, woody, balanced, and dark. Maybe volume needs to be one.

[StuartE]

I think it has been done for violin. see this paper

And a list in this discussion page, post by Michael Darnton.

[Rush Burkhardt]

Neat idea, Andrew! How do we start?

[Hudmister]

Its hard to agree on sound descriptions, especially for mandolins and I applaud your effort. Some descriptions of sound quality that work for me :
A mandolin with so much bark it scared all the cats in the neighborhood.
So much volume it still has a quart left when all the others are empty.
So much sustain you have to put it in the case to get some sleep at night.
Flame maple sides and back that caught the sofa on fire.
Plays like butter but never smells rancid.
A sunburst finish you need to wear sunglasses to look at.

[Andrew B. Carlson]

We would 4 four qualities that would be unique in that they are noticeably different. Being that the 2 top squares are on opposite sides of the spectrum as are the 2 bottom squares. For instance, trebly and bassy. Or tight and open.

Keep in mind, I haven't done any graphing for ages. I'm sure there are professionals on the forum who would be aghast at my MS Paint attempt. If you are a professional, forgive me (and please help).

[Andrew B. Carlson]

Something like this. Folks can recommend coordinates like 7-K and specify make and model, and we can add it to the map.



We'll just go on the assumption that it's all subjective, but that we can get close to coming to an average rating.

[trevor]

I think Breedlove used to do one for guitars. I don't know if anyone can find it?

[multidon]

I think instrument tone qualities are too complicated and nuanced to boil down to quieter vs louder and trebly vs bassy.

Any instrument is loud if you pick it hard enough. Meaningless.

What about " woody" qualities, with much importance attached to that term, even though no one seems to agree on exactly what that exactly means?

Would all the mandolins be strung with the same type of string? What if the standard string is not the recommended string for that brand? What if it is a mandolin where heavies are not recommended? Doesn't it matter whether you have lights, mediums, heavies, phosphor, 80/20, flat wound, chromed, monels? Will all the test mandolins be picked with the same pick? Blue Chip perhaps?

A chart like this is an exercise in futility, IMHO.

[Jeff Richards]

I am willing to give it a try.

[Pick&Grin]

I hope something comes of this, which could be very useful. It would be futile, multidon, if the goal was laser accuracy, which it shouldn't be. However, some makes and models certainly do have different volumes/tones/voices for which they are known.

For older brands (Gibson, of course) it would be interesting to get an idea of characteristics changed in different eras.

[Mark Wilson]

My mandolin map:


To the OP - determining the four definitive parameters is the hard part.

Sounds like a fun project for someone who lives next to a Elderly's or something similar

[Steve Sorensen]

Hard to grade/rank plot the subjective aspects of tone, response and playability.

I am listening for four primary aspects of tone -
1. Wood
2. Wire
3. Resonance/sustain/overtones
4. Even response from G-0 to E-24 and across may chords

To me, the best mandolins (John Reischman's Loar being a pinnacle example) have complex, even, woody response that conveys very little of the harsh wirey tightness.

Sustain is balanced across the fretboard and is sufficient to allow for musicality moderate but doesn't result in echoing tones or overtones that slosh around or muddy the previous notes.

Response is even across the strings. Chord response is balanced and can be given a crisp ring or muted with a clean released "chop". Often a hard-driven fifth fret "A" chord is the most immediate truth serum.

Not sure how you would graph that . . .

Steve

[Andrew B. Carlson]

Hard to grade/rank plot the subjective aspects of tone, response and playability.

I am listening for four primary aspects of tone -
1. Wood
2. Wire
3. Resonance/sustain/overtones
4. Even response from G-0 to E-24 and across may chords

To me, the best mandolins (John Reischman's Loar being the a pinnacle example) have complex, even, woody response that conveys very little of the harsh wirey tightness.

Sustain is balanced across the fretboard and is sufficient to allow for musicality moderate but doesn't result in echoing tones or overtones that slosh around or muddy the previous notes.

Response is even across the strings. Chord response is balanced and can be given a crisp ring or muted with a clean released "chop". Often a hard-driven fifth fret "A" chord is the most immediate truth serum.

Not sure how you would graph that . . .

Steve

Thanks guys. That first draft is just that. An example of what I'm getting at. I most definitely want "woody" in there since it seems to be a frequently desired trait.

I like the "woody" vs. "wirey" spectrum. I'll keep altering the 4 qualities (assuming we only want 4. I'm literally thinking inside the box shape). And yes, someone living next door to elderly would be best for this, but it is what it is.

Ironically, I've played Reischman's Loar, so at least I have that going for me. Steve, where would you place JR's Loar? I wouldn't say that the center of the map is where I would put it, meaning it has all things equal, but I'd put it more in the NE quadrant (using compass terms).

Here's version 1.2.

[Steve Sorensen]

Dang . . . I've been sucked in again!

I don't think Treble/Bass is an axis -- mandolins are Treble instruments and response is certainly not that simple. For example, there are mandolins that are thuddy bassey and tinney trebley but pleasant in the mids. The really great instruments have even, balanced and beautiful response and tone across the fretboard AND can deliver when played gently or with power.

Steve

[Pete Jenner]

1. Slippery
2. Sly
3. Concrete
4. Combustable

[Andrew B. Carlson]

I think Breedlove used to do one for guitars. I don't know if anyone can find it?

Yup. Breedlove has one for tonewoods. Here it is. http://breedlovemusic.com/soundstudio/tone-woods/

[Spruce]

Interesting that my fav (Oban) is dead-center...
I might have put it more north-east...

So-ooo, what's dead-center in the mando world?

[OldSausage]

Lagavulin's always been my favorite. And I think I have the mandolin to match.

[Marty Jacobson]

I used to work for a marketing company. Everything had to be made "visual". So I was asked to make a lot of charts like this. Always, the axis were labeled things like "Digital" on one side, to "Personal" on the other. Or "Loyalty" ranging to "Experience".
We never knew what it meant, so we just made it look cool. The emperor never blushed, and the executives were thrilled.

[Ron McMillan]

For the purposes of the Cafe, it seems like it could be simplified to 'Sounds Like Bill'/'Doesn't Sound Like Bill' and 'Great with BC'/'Not Great With BC'

[mandroid]

& theres the Different parts of the soundboard respond differently
to different frequencies analysis you could do.

a whole pictorial show of zones of response..

Thus based on Data rather than a perceived attempt to describe a sound ..

You could do that with what are apparent look a likes in a production run ,
since each is a bit different..

[JeffD]

For the purposes of the Cafe, it seems like it could be simplified to 'Sounds Like Bill'/'Doesn't Sound Like Bill' and 'Great with BC'/'Not Great With BC'

And it should be just concentric circles with 'Sounds like Bill" in the center.

[JeffD]

Actually, instead of individual brands and models, or perhaps as a first step, it might interesting to map different kinds of mandolins. Arch tops, flat tops, bowl backs, etc.

[JeffD]

I used to work for a marketing company. Everything had to be made "visual". So I was asked to make a lot of charts like this. Always, the axis were labeled things like "Digital" on one side, to "Personal" on the other. Or "Loyalty" ranging to "Experience".
We never knew what it meant, so we just made it look cool. The emperor never blushed, and the executives were thrilled.

I have seen hundreds of these, in all the management, marketing, leadership, employee performance review training I have attended over the years. At the moment of introduction I feel like "yea yea that makes perfect sense, it brings together a lot of half thought out ideas into a coherent system" and I get all warm and fuzzy. But it often doesn't pass the refrigerator test, meaning that once you get up and go to the fridge in the break room you start to think of all things that don't really apply, or that aren't captured in the graphic but are real important.