Playing rhythm during guitar break

[Raleigh Harwell]

I've been playing for the past few months with two buddies (guitar/banjo) and we are begining to sound as though we're making real "music".

My question is that whenever we give the guitar player a solo it's hard to keep the rhythm going and it seems we tend to get a bit lost in the song. Has anyone else experienced this or have any advice? At the end of the day, is it up to the mandolin player in this situation to fill in?

I appreciate any thoughts/advice.

Best,

Raleigh

[jazzjune18]

Raleigh, I am assuming that what you are saying is that the guitar player just keeps noodling and next thing you know everyone is lost. hum the REALmelody quietly to yourself while playing backup. Often times when people are noodling they themselves get lost so if you can keep with the rhythm he will do he same. I found that this works really well in BG jams

[Paleosporin]

Yes, you keep track of how many bars and what the progression is. Ideally, everybody should be doing that, but it is easy to get lost while soliong. It might be a good idea to collectively work on feeling the phrase (have everybody solo for eight or sixteen bars, one after the other) and really be strict about the phrase length.

[Tobin]

It means you are all relying on the guitar too much to tell you what you're doing. While he is playing rhythm, he is carrying everyone and leading them. If you all get lost when he takes a break, it means your crutch is gone. Best thing is to learn the chords and the tune by heart, and pay through his break no matter what he's doing. Sounds simple and obvious, I know, but that's what it takes.

Usually if I'm going to get lost, it's going to happen in the middle of my own break!

[Mandoplumb]

If the guitar plays "boom-chuck" rhythm he is carrying the beat and back or off beat. If you are poping chords and the banjo is vamping for rhythm no one is carrying the beat. You must concentrate on the melody until you can think rhythm on off beat only, this is learned. After playing bluegrass mandolin for years it comes second nature to me, I can get in a audience that is clapping along with some music ( it will always be on the beat) start clapping loudly on the off beat and cause the whole room to lose the beat,it will soon sound like applause.

[journeybear]

The problem with losing the rhythm from the guitar is the downbeat goes away. Banjo and especially mandolin are often used to play the backbeat, and without a bass player (which would render this issue rather moot) it's easy to run adrift. When the guitar player in my band takes a lead (thankfully, seldom) I have to remember to switch my rhythm playing to fill the gap. This usually means playing on the downbeat, using lower voicings. So in G, no G chop chord, but rather 0023 or 4557, in D 2002 (blunting the open strings) or 2455 - that sort of thing. You'll still be an octave above the guitar, but if you can accentuate the lower strings, you'll at least be partly in its range.

Sometimes I find myself playing both downbeat and backbeat, in a song I'm fond of the mandolin rhythm part. I suppose this ends up being a sort of sock rhythm. In any event, you have to maintain an internal understanding of the song's structure and keep a steady tempo. The more you do this, the easier it will become.

Actually, what you really ought to do is get a bass player and kick the banjo to the curb. Just sayin' ...

[SincereCorgi]

It means you are all relying on the guitar too much to tell you what you're doing. While he is playing rhythm, he is carrying everyone and leading them. If you all get lost when he takes a break, it means your crutch is gone. Best thing is to learn the chords and the tune by heart, and pay through his break no matter what he's doing. Sounds simple and obvious, I know, but that's what it takes.

I agree with this. You shouldn't be getting lost during a solo if you know the song really well and you're counting and paying attention. Getting to that state requires homework, though. Maybe try putting on the metronome and recording yourself playing rhythm, aiming to get through the tune three or four times cleanly. Transitions are often tricky, too, so you guys might want to consciously practice getting into and out of solos without losing the pulse. Thing is, there's a difference between a jam and a band practice, and not everybody wants the former to turn into the latter.

[journeybear]

Nor vice versa. Practice sessions are most productive when they stay focused. Jamming is fine, and can be productive in other ways - getting in a groove with the other guys, coming up with new riffs and other happy accidents - but try to hold off until you get enough work done.

[Beanzy]

Don't know if there's thing you can take from my experience so far but; If things get a bit uncertain I'll often use just the top string or two heavily on the beat with the full four course chop remaining on the offbeat. It gets awfully fast for the right hand though and it's hard to be really definite. I tried moving the offbeat chop to up-strokes so I could just remain at the same speed and use the retakes to double, but that's hard to swap in and out of for me. Doing all four beats on the same instrument can get a bit gypsy jazz sounding if there's not enough distinction between the two beat types, so I'll keep trying those transitions to up-chops and see if I get that.

Maybe you could get a loop pedal for practice so you all hear his guitar still while getting used to his solo?

[Peter Coronado]

Without a bass in the mix it can be hard because in 4/4 the 1 and 3 go missing. Also if the guitar player's break is out there, I mean wandering pretty far from the melody, it can be confusing (Where are we now?). I find tapping my foot on the 1 and 3 helps. As others have said you can also play a bass note on the 1 and 3. For sure know the progression and be able to play it no matter what. Sounds like a fun trio!

[AlanN]

Mention was made of someone humming the melody during another's break. This drives me nuts, don't like it, at all. What it means (to me) is the hummer

- is not listening
- doesn't know the tune
- can't drive the number

I play on occasion with a guitar man who does this, loudly. Not for me.

[UsuallyPickin]

Well ..... Play the downbeats as well as the off beats and boom chuck like the guitar player. Count your measures and when the end of a break is coming play a simple tie off kind of lick and go on to the next thing. If you are having trouble it may also be that you are being led astray by the banjo player falling off the rhythm wagon or the guitarists noodling not being chord change oriented. The obvious solution is to find a bass player .......... good luck with that .. R/

[Raleigh Harwell]

Wow! This was my first time posting..what great advice. Sounds like I need to spend more time and focus on my own playing (that and get a bass player). Thanks!

[eadg145]

After playing bluegrass mandolin for years it comes second nature to me, I can get in a audience that is clapping along with some music ( it will always be on the beat) start clapping loudly on the off beat and cause the whole room to lose the beat,it will soon sound like applause.

Oh, so you're THAT guy!

[Markus]

In a small ensemble, I find doing something like what journeybear suggests [sock-rhythm-like backup] can help maintain the groove and helps everyone else stay on track. This will not fit for some songs or genres [no one technique does] but if there is a particularly tricky song it might be a good solution for keeping the group together.

Practice rhythm and backup, both at home [with metronome] and in the group. When I play at jams, by the end of the night I feel like I could tell you who practices backup and chording and who just practices solo parts.

[journeybear]

I should have pointed out that if I play that sock rhythm (downbeat and backbeat), I try to change the emphasis just a bit between the two, so the lead player can tell where he is better. Depends on the song, but usually I'll accent the downbeat just a bit more. It seems to me it's more important to delineate the start of a measure when providing backup. If you can lock in with a bass player, and hit the lower strings more than the higher strings, this will work about as well as possible.

[SincereCorgi]

Mention was made of someone humming the melody during another's break. This drives me nuts, don't like it, at all. What it means (to me) is the hummer

- is not listening
- doesn't know the tune
- can't drive the number

I play on occasion with a guitar man who does this, loudly. Not for me.

Man, I really dislike this, too. I play in a jam with one banjo lady who does this and I think comes off as very passive-aggressive- she basically hums or plays the actual tune through my break. In her case, it's Bluegrass Police-ism, as though to indicate to others: 'This poor soul must not know how Salt Creek goes! Despite the previous three breaks! I will play it for everyone again to prevent catastrophe!'

This probably deserves its own thread.

[Pete Martin]

Mention was made of someone humming the melody during another's break. This drives me nuts, don't like it, at all. What it means (to me) is the hummer

- is not listening
- doesn't know the tune
- can't drive the number

I play on occasion with a guitar man who does this, loudly. Not for me.

One should keep the melody going in their mind, but definitely not out loud.

[Tobin]

The problem with losing the rhythm from the guitar is the downbeat goes away. Banjo and especially mandolin are often used to play the backbeat, and without a bass player (which would render this issue rather moot) it's easy to run adrift. When the guitar player in my band takes a lead (thankfully, seldom) I have to remember to switch my rhythm playing to fill the gap. This usually means playing on the downbeat, using lower voicings. So in G, no G chop chord, but rather 0023 or 4557, in D 2002 (blunting the open strings) or 2455 - that sort of thing. You'll still be an octave above the guitar, but if you can accentuate the lower strings, you'll at least be partly in its range.

I absolutely agree with this. Thankfully, the group I usually play with has at least two guitars so we're usually covered on the downbeat when one guitar player takes a break. But last Sunday I had a couple select players over to my house for a session, and we only had one guitar. That really changed the dynamics and I ended up doing just what you're talking about.

I was experimenting between the lowest-voiced chords and some others. For example, a D chord sounded fine using the 2002 shape, but it sort of gave it a nice dimension to play 740X, especially when used with sliding up and down between 6200 or 9700 for A and 455X or 755X for G. I found myself using different chord voices for different parts of tunes while the guitar player was busy with his breaks, but like you said, accentuating the G and D strings really helped fill out the sound. And I didn't feel like anything was missing by not chopping on the back beat. Just keeping a nice easy strumming rhythm was enough for what we were playing. Had we been doing something more bluegrass-specific, it would have been simple to just chop the back beat, using my pinky to mute across all the strings.

[AlanN]

One should keep the melody going in their mind, but definitely not out loud.

No question there. And not to be confused with the at-bat soloist humming
- like Johnny Gimble, Hendrix, Slam Stewart, George Benson, etc. That can be cool and musically-hip...if done right and not over-done

The guitar man I refer to does it more on songs which can get lost in the groove - John Hartford's Gentle On My Mind and the like. These types of songs can be a bit open in terms of where the soloist is within the tune. Still, he needs to keep his yap shut (and his ears open).

Harumph....

[Toni Schula]

What jazzjune18 said in the first reply, I can also do very well: get lost in the solos

There was many good advice so far. My favorites are
- practise with a metronome. All of you alone at home and together in the band rehearsal. It might take a while till the metronome gets used to you and can keep up to the beat, you know what I mean.
- record your own practising and the band rehearsal and listen critcally to what is going on. Where do you speed up? Where is the metronome running away, because that part is so darn hard to play? Where does the metronome fall behind? Is that half note really that long?
- listen to the others and be supportive. The ones who are backing have to do everything to make the soloist sound better. Give room, play softer. Be the metronome, emphasise the beat. Can a little fill in at the end of a phrase help to navigate through the tune AND sound interesting? Other hints for the position in the tune might be simple chord replacements. Instead of playing D D D G you might play D D D7 G. Sometimes the purpose can be best achieved by playing nothing for a while.
- Adjust your playing to the style of music and to the band's needs. As pointed out in the other posts in a lean, small band there is more to do for everyone to maintain the grove.

[Ky Slim]

It seems to me it's more important to delineate the start of a measure when providing backup.

And delineate the chord changes. I think this is very helpful to the guitarist that is taking the break. Remember that the bottom just fell out for him as well. Try to hit the first down beat of each measure or the first down beat of each new chord. Then you can chop backbeats or whatever, but state the chord changes on the beats where they happen.

[David L]

When playing mandolin in a duo with a bass player (or guitar) I some times sing the bass part (dum-dum-dum) during their solos. Providing a bass part along with mandolin chords really helps keep the sound full. This doesn't always work, but is a great tool to have.

[JeffD]

I am assuming from the question that this is a rehearsal / performance situation, not a jam session situation.

If that is the case, my thought is - let the guitar player wander. Its his artistry. He is deciding how far from the melody and rhythm to move. Its all on him.

But... organize with him that he gives a signal, a musical riff, or an eye nod, some agreed upon sign that he is bringing it home. At that point it is up to him then to re-establish the rhythm and to re-establish where in the tune he is coming back to.

Organize as well what you all can be doing while waiting for him to come home, light tinging on the cymbols, a steady rhythm, light free association chords, random tremolo, what does he want.

When he takes his break its his show. What would he like from you?

As long as he can communicate his intention to come home, and confidently get back to something the rest of the band can sync to -and the band has practiced syncing to it, then who cares what free jazz weirdness occurs during his excursions into what he believes is high art (and might be who knows).

[jazzjune18]

Hah guess my statement was misunderstood via the wonders of the Internet. My "humming" isn't really audible, mainly in my head. And yes I guess it would mean that I don't fully know te tune, but hey that is why we practice right? It sounds to me like the OP and his friends don't have the tunes mastered but are in the process of learning it.