Best Bridge Design

[MikeB]

I just came from a revisit to Red Henry's website about his experiments in designing a better mando bridge. You can't come away from there without feeling he is definitely on to something, and wonder why you don't see more of his bridge design in use. #Or so it hits me.

So, if I can ask, without making every luthier out there sigh and roll his eyes at my naivete...

First, IS he on to something? #Will this style bridge really give the results he (and his co-experimenters) say it will? #(I know, I know, all mandolins are different...etc, etc, but could someone generalize a bit, please?)

Why don't more people use the Red Henry-style maple bridge? # (Aside from its non-adjustability. #If that's all it is, someone say so, I will shut up.)

Finally, #is there anyone who would make me one of these things?

I hope this subject is interesting enough to flush out a few good responses. #The Cafe never fails me....

[Chris Baird]

It doesn't produce the loar tone. It may be a fuller more complete tone but if it doesn't make your mando sound like Bill Monroe's mandolin than it won't catch on. Actually I think the design just doesn't get marketed enough. They are not readily accesible and folks don't hear about them. There is a lot one can do to the higher register by altering the bridge design.

[MikeB]

Bless you, Chris, for jumping right in. #I sort of expect more answers of this type...."If it don't sound like and look like Monroe's, I don't want it." #

I'm sure glad people didn't get this attached to the Wright Brothers airplane design....

[Charlie Derrington]

A mandolin is not a violin. There are different tonal requirements for both. Chris is dead right. A maple bridge (to my ear) will never sound right. I (when younger) experimented with different materials for bridges and always come back to ebony with adjustment wheels. I'm not speaking for everyone, but I still think the model is the Loar and build accordingly.

I think it's great for folks to try different things, but it ain't for me.

Charlie

[MikeB]

(Hot dang! #They're bringing in the Big Guns!)

Seriously, thanks, you guys. #I do sort of get your points about 'if it works, why change it?' # I'm not asking anyone to toss out the obvious and time-tested innovations of Gibson, Loar, and anyone else. #

I'm just wondering if maybe Red Henry is on to something that a lot of us might like, if it were more available, especially, let's say, for non-F-mandolins.

I have a nice old 20s Gibson A with an adjustable rosewood bridge. #I don't think it comes close to being the ideal bridge for this instrument. #But, all I can find for replacement is the Loar style. #(Apologies, Vern Brekke. I have one of those, too, but not for this mandolin....)

So, what do you think about putting a RHenry style maple bridge on my old A model?

[sunburst]

"No violin maker would ever think of making a bridge out of ebony" Fretbear

"A mandolin is not a violin" Charlie D.

I used to draw, build, and experiment with different bridge designs for banjo and violin based loosely on the violin model. I never could hear any great difference in the sound. I concluded that what works for a violin dosn't necessarily work for a mandolin.
Pluck a violin and bow a mandolin. They don't work the same, they don't sound the same.
I assume that the traditional ebony adjustable bridge can be improved on, but I'll leave the experiments to others. A lot of time would have to be devoted to it. I don't know if Red is on to anything or not, but somewhere I have a drawing of a bridge that is similar, and I decided I wasn't on to anything.

[jim simpson]

I have experimented with trad. bridge, Brekke bridge, bone top, bone insert, etc. The one thing I have not done is record the instrument for before and after comparisons. This should probably be done to measure any change or improvement. The benefit would be to also get the opinions of others in a blind test.

[johnwalser]

I have been experimenting with bridge designs for about a month now and have been corresponding with Red (Really Great Guy!} and we have exchanged some different woods.
I have played with maple, oak, ebony and have some Madagascar rosewood I will be trying. So far I have made 7 bridges in different designs mainly using Red's design concepts, but incorporating my own ideas also. Right now I have an ebony minimal design drilled with 10 holes that endows my 30 year old Epiphone with much better tone, volume and greater sustain than what I started with. Two of the bridges I have made so far have really stunk, but 5 have had interesting tone and every one is different. This is great fun and I have at least three more radically different ideas I want to try. When I decide what design suits my ear, I intend to produce it in different materials including some wood from a Giant Sequoia tree that was cut down in the early 50s.
I made a bridge of some very old oak I had, sent some to Red and told him if he also made a bridge from oak, we could be known as "The Oak Bridge Boys".
John

[K_D]

I'm kind of a tinkerer and have made Red Henry-style maple bridges for a couple of my mandos (Stewmac kit F5 and Weber Bridger). In both cases the maple was a fair bit louder and brighter than the ebony bridges I have.

On the Weber I tried the factory Brekke, a Loar-style ebony, and the Red Henry-style maple back to back using the same old dead TI (stark) strings. Of the 3 the maple sounded best to me on this instrument. Note: I originally cut the feet of the maple bridge to the same width (end to end) as the Loar-style and the difference was much less noticeable. Later I took ~1cm off each ends of the feet (as shown on Red's page) which gave a more obvious increase in volume. I later put J74 strings on this mando and am still happy with the maple bridge. (it'll stay)

On the Stewmac I went from a Randy Wood Loar-style ebony to a M-shaped solid ebony bridge (home-made of course) and finally to the maple Red Henry-style. The solid ebony had standard width base but was a fair bit lighter than the Loar-style. This resulted in more volume and a little more brightness on the high strings. Going to maple on this mando took the volume and brightness up even more to the point where it sounds a bit harsh on the E strings with pointier picks. These tests were done with some middle-aged J67s I still have on this instrument but I plan to try J74s and TIs as well before passing final judgement.

There are many many variables here but overall I'd say that maple (Red Henry-style)is generally louder and brighter sounding. On some mandos this will work well but if the instrument is already pretty loud and bright the results might be a bit harsh sounding. In this case I'd guess some flat-wound strings (eg TIs) might be worth a try.

Just some empirical ramblings from a relative feather-weight Keith

[MikeB]

I really do appreciate all this input--and that was all I was after: information. #I do not have the intention, knowledge, or expertise to convince anyone of anything. #It just seemed to me that when we can buy 10 or 20 different combinations of strings almost anywhere, 99% (guessing) of all mandolins come with a Loar style ebony bridge.
Given the variations in sound (outside of bluegrass) that people like, it is a bit frustrating to have so few easily accessible choices.

I'm sure the classical guys here are snickering under their breaths about this. #They are in another sphere on this, I'd think. #But, I'm surprised more Celtic and other types don't wonder about this issue like I do.

I hope this discussion continues a bit longer. # There must plenty of us who don't own Loar mandolins. #Why can't we find non-Loar bridges?

[daveb]

I am currently playing a Red Henry type maple bridge. I made about 6 prototypes before I setteled on this one. On my MM the volume has increased and the bark is great on chop chords.
I had to play around with feet sizes, hole sizes and positions to get the sound I wanted.
I also made a maple bridge for my flat top oval hole mandolin and gained volume and clarity as well over the stock black walnut bridge.

Dave

[Chris Baird]

For what its worth: The role of the bridge is to provide a coupling between the strings and the top plate such that the periodic force of the oscilating strings is most efficiently transfered. There are a number of variables that will be specific to each instrument. The modes of most popular strings are nearly exact with variances in amplitudes for certain modes. The top plates of mandolins can vary quite a bit in mode frequecies and amplitudes and the same goes for bridges. The radiation of higher register tones is largely a factor of how well coupled the strings are to the bride and the top plate. As nearly every mandolin varies in top plate modes nearly every mandolin will have variances in ideally efficient coupling with the strings and the bridge. Most folks have already done the necessary experiments to find the ideal strings for their mandolin and tonal taste. However, the same can't be said for the bridge. The factors to consider when hunting out new materials are, modulus of elasticity, dampening effect or Q, mass/density. If one increases the elasticity one will increase the modes frequencies, generally I would guess that one would stick with woods with low dampening characteristics, and the greater the mass the lower the frequency of the the bridges modes. So a lighter stiffer bridge will sound brighter where as a heavier more flexible bridge will sound darker.

[sunburst]

Here's one of the things that made me stop experimenting with bridges.
Frank Ford bridge experiment

[WoodyMcKenzie]

I have Red Henry style maple bridges on my mandolins. I started out with a Brekke bridge on the Stewmac kit mandolin. The maple bridge is louder and I hear more high end pick noise with it. When I visited David Cohen a few years ago, I saw his bridges which were radically different, having a different shaped foot and being *extremely* light weight. That may be the advantage of maple over ebony in being louder-- maple is less dense and it's easier to get a lightweight bridge. On my last mandolin, the top sunk a bit during break in and this became a bother, having a non-adjustable maple bridge on it. Well, not a geat bother for me-- I just applied a thin layer of a wood epoxy compound to the feet and laid a piece of plastic food wrap on the mandolin top and then gently set the bridge on and strung it up under very low tension. This form fit the feet of the bridge quite nicely to the top and the next day, I pulled the plastic wrap off and cleaned up the bridge a bit.Some folks might not like the idea of having a layer of nonwood on their bridge feet, but I can't really tell any difference in sound from before. I hope to eventually try out some different bridge materials that are light weight and easy to form (any suggestions?).Some very quick and interesting experiments could be done on individual mandolins by adjusting the bridge weight. My violin acoustics mentor does this by adding small chunks of beeswax to instruments in various places. This might be a way to determine what weight of bridge gives you the kind of tone and volume that you prefer. I would just like to add that it's fine to already have your optimal sound defined by a standard like Loar mandolins, but my life is richer with the possiblility of finding different sounds and maybe even developing my own ear a bit. Thanks to all those folks like Red Henry, David Cohen, and many others here who openly share kowledge and advice!

Woody

[MikeB]

Sunburst: But Frank took that experiment to it's extreme. #He made the lightest bridge he could possibly make out of maple. #There's a lot of room for adjustment between a solid ebony bridge and the one he wound up with, I'd think.

Thanks to all those folks like Red Henry, David Cohen, and many others here who openly share kowledge and advice!

#--Woody

And thanks to you, to Woody, from me!

[Darryl Wolfe]

I've been making Loar style bridges for many years. I have replaced many bridges on many mandolins and the result is that the client's mandolin sounds warmer, darker and more Gibson Loaresque in nature. This has happened on older F5L's, Monroe Models, Horners and many others where the original bridge was generally less substantial.

Experimentation is great, but given the above fact, is there any chance I can find a different style bridge for my Loar that makes it sound more like a Loar than it already does????

[dave waite]

The whole idea of a solid maple bridge made so much sense to me that I tried a Tourtelotte(sp?) maple bridge on a ~4,000 mandolin. My impressions were: (1)Increased volume. (2)Loss of tonal complexity. (3)General impression: Did'nt like the tone. I also noticed that a couple of other mandolins I have heard with solid maple also seemed very loud, but not in a pleasant way. Result: went back to standard ebony adjustable. I still can't understand why it sounds better transferring vibration through metal screws, but I'll leave it up to the scientists to figure it out.
That's my .02
Thanks,
Dave

[peter.coombe]

I have tried the Henry bridge in various configurations and don't like the sound of the Maple bridges. #I agree with Dave Waite - louder, loss of tonal complexity and an overall harder tonal quality. #Impressive at first because of the improved volume, but with time gets tiring. #I even got STE to make a Maple Brekke for me so I could compare two bridges that were absolutely identical except for the wood. #I played a Maple bridge for some months, so it had a good settling in period. #My first and second choice is Ebony and Ebony (get the message?), but I have ended up modifiying the Brekke bridge to give it more volume and an improved treble. #I have published my results in JAAMIM and you can find the paper with pictures of the bridges on my web page at http://www.petercoombe.com/jaamim4.html. #IMHO Maple bridges suck on mandolins.

[MikeB]

Peter, for some reason, I can't open that page, or your website. #I tried to get to you yesterday through your site, after seeing your comments on maple bridges at Red Henry's site, but no luck. #I just can't get there from here....

I had no opinion about maple bridges when I opened this thread, just curious about the reported results at the RH site. #I'm rapidly becoming convinced, though, of the qualities of ebony.

My whole point, REALLY, was to try to find the right replacement bridge for my Gibson A. #Since I can't seem to reach you through your website, Peter, can I ask here? #Do you have something I could buy? #(A private reply is fine....)

[MikeB]

Before this thread runs out, Red Henry also did experiments with foot surface area of his bridges. #Putting the maple question aside, what about changes in the foot of an ebony bridge? #What about woods somewhere between maple and ebony? #What about a graphite bridge, weighted selectively, and scientifically by a computer model, with an ebony saddle.....ok, ok, I give.:laugh:

[peter.coombe]

Sorry about the link, somehow a fullstop got included on the end that should not have been there. It works now.

[slowpoke]

I did a little experimenting with the Henry style bridges on an import mandolin (using cherry) but didn't like any of the results. #While there was more volume, they always sounded a bit harsh. #It didn't seem worth the effort. #Something else I tried that I like better is to remove the metal wheels from a standard loar type ebony bridge and insert some wood shims (basically squared off wooden washers) to give the proper height. #Removing the wheels knocked almost 4 grams off the bridge weight. #Using the wood shims takes the metal posts out of the transmission path while the screws keep things from slipping around. #I got more volume with richer tone on both the low end and high end. #I like it much better than the Brekke bridge I tried. #I used alder, but might try some other woods to see how they affect tone. #If the wood type has a significant effect, it might be feasible to use different wood on the bass and treble sides of the bridge to balance the tone in different ways. #Another advantage is that the bridge is still 'adjustable'...just swap shims of different thickness as needed...not as convenient as wheels, but not bad.

On another note, anybody have any experience with the tonal characteristics of Lyptus wood? #It's very dense, hard, and heavy...just wondering if it might make a substitute for ebony. #Thanks.

Jim

[MikeB]

Hey, Jim, I like that idea. #It appears that the people most likely to experiment with different wood bridges are using less expensive mandolins. #I suppose they have the most to gain. #A good mandolin probably already has a pretty acceptible bridge. #

Still, I like these experiments. #I was surprise that your modification sounds better than the Brekke, since the concept is so similar (wood on wood). #Maybe the type of wood really does matter. #And I loved your idea of different wood, bass and treble. #Might have to give that one a try.

Btw, did you read Peter Coombes article about how he modifies the Brekke? #I just ordered another Brekke for my old Gibson (after starting this thread). #I talked to Vern and he's going to make the mods for me! #Great folks over at Weber, I gotta tell you. # He even said he was going to send Peter C a "courtesy letter" letting him know what he was doing. #This, on the bridge Vern himself INVENTED. #I think this is pretty cool.

[slowpoke]

Mike,

Thanks. #I'm not sure why this works better than the Brekke bridge for me. #The Brekkes have a very small cutout between the bridge feet, making the feet pretty long. #Red Henry mentioned that short feet (like 1 inch long) work better on his bridges. #I wonder if that might have something to do with it. #It doesn't look like the cutout on the Brekke could be widened much without seriously affecting the bridge strength. #The Brekke design is quite clever. #I wonder if Mr. Brekke would be interested in experimenting with his design to see if it could be modified to be about 4 inches in total length with a 2 inch wide cutout between the feet.

Anyway, let us know how your new bridge works for you.

Jim