Pickup Recommendation for older Kentucky

[educatedguess417]

Howdy. I have an older f-hole Kentucky KM-250 I bought at McCabe's several decades ago. I've been invited to join my old church band to come and sit in once in a while. I'd like to add a pickup to the instrument in the $100 range, give or take $50 bucks. I'd prefer to not replace the current bridge with a bridge pickup.

Are the K&K aftermarket PU's pretty good for mandolin? It looks like an easy install, and if the sound is close to a bridge PU that would be fine.

If not K&K, what other aftermarket PUs are in the same price range with similar sound and ease of install?

Thanks Much,
EG

[mandroid]

Hundreds of posts on this topic .. Read back a ways . check the archives , thats why it's retained .

[kkmm]

I have used the glue-on type piezo pickup (round) on many mandolins, for some reasons, all sound good thru my ACOUSTIC amp, except the last one, which shows too much treble. Adjusting EQ on the amp helps some but still not satisfactory.
My ukulele also sounds good with one of these.
I believe the bridge pickup will give the best acoustic sound as it is similar to the "under the saddle transducer" frequently used on acoustic guitars (I have installed about two dozen and all of them sound very acoustic , not like electric guitar).

I have seen these "under the bridge" pickup for violin and the transducer is kind of flat (thin film) instead of 2.5mm thick like on guitars. I could not find similar pickup for mandolin.

[educatedguess417]

Hundreds of posts on this topic .. Read back a ways . check the archives , thats why it's retained .

Mandroid, thanks for taking the time to respond. I will indeed search through the archives.

Thanks Again for taking the time,
EG

[educatedguess417]

I have used the glue-on type piezo pickup (round) on many mandolins, for some reasons, all sound good thru my ACOUSTIC amp, except the last one, which shows too much treble. Adjusting EQ on the amp helps some but still not satisfactory.
My ukulele also sounds good with one of these.
I believe the bridge pickup will give the best acoustic sound as it is similar to the "under the saddle transducer" frequently used on acoustic guitars (I have installed about two dozen and all of them sound very acoustic , not like electric guitar).

I have seen these "under the bridge" pickup for violin and the transducer is kind of flat (thin film) instead of 2.5mm thick like on guitars. I could not find similar pickup for mandolin.

KKMM, thanks for the info. I'm hoping I can find get buy without a bridge pickup, if I can find a decent Piezo glue-on style. Do you happen to remember which brand you've installed of that type that sounded decent?

Thanks much for taking the time to chime in.

EG

[almeriastrings]

A properly installed soundboard transducer is - in my opinion - generally superior tonally to a bridge-based pickup. Less "harsh/quacky" and somewhat "sweeter" and "woodier" in a mandolin context. Bridge units are marginally more resistant to feedback, but not by much. The K&K's are very good examples, also check the JJB transducers which are "very similar" in all respects.

I would highly recommend budgeting for a suitable preamp. You need a high impedance (minimum 1M, preferably more) with all of these. JJB (above) has a new one out. If you want to do it on the cheap, the Behringer AD121 also works very well.

[mandroid]

I bought a Swiss Made Schertler Dyn M
then I stopped shopping for pickups or having any installed .
it is removed when not needed.

Installed Piezos are low cost. not including installation labor.

Commonly you add they cost of a piezo friendly preamp ..

Where the contact microphone pickup use a common Mic preamp ,
in many acoustic sing/play amps, and mixer channels..

[kkmm]

Do you happen to remember which brand you've installed of that type that sounded decent?

I was using the Tyler Mountain (assumed made in US) and some cheap ones made from China (which sound good on many mandolins I tried, except one). It't not just the brand, it's how and where you install it under the sound board.
I found out that by having a layer (about 1mm thick) of superglue between the piezo and the sound board (under), it sound much much better, my guess is the superglue layer filter about the treble frequency, making it sound warmer.
The trouble with these glue-on piezo is the feedback. The top sound board acts as a huge microphone membrane !!!
Somehow, my ACOUSTIC amp (30 watts) does not have feedback issue with this. I stand right in front of it with my mandolin or ukulele, NO FEEDBACK.
But my big Yamaha (2 x 500 watts, only cranked on about 70 watts in my living room) sound system does even if I stood far away and face away from the speakers.

Installed Piezos are low cost. not including installation labor.

This is true, if you have the right drill bit to drill the hole for 1/4" jack. I use the 3/8" spade bit that does the job in less than 30 seconds, CLEAN.

[McIrish]

K&K pickups would be the best in your situation. You'll probably need a preamp though. Even better sound would be a small microphone but a good AT 350 is over twice the price. I've seen Punch Brothers using them on and off. If you don't move much, you could just use an SM57 on a stand. That will still beat the sound of any pickup.

[educatedguess417]

Hey folks, I'm the OP and I'm so sorry to have not responded sooner. The reason? I've searched high and low on this site and cannot find how to set up my account for automatic notification of a response in my email. Could someone help me with this.

Where do I go to set up my account to receive immediate notice in my regular email every time someone responds to this thread?

Thank you. I will check back later as soon as I have time to respond to all this great feedback.

EG

[educatedguess417]

K&K pickups would be the best in your situation. You'll probably need a preamp though. Even better sound would be a small microphone but a good AT 350 is over twice the price. I've seen Punch Brothers using them on and off. If you don't move much, you could just use an SM57 on a stand. That will still beat the sound of any pickup.

I agree about the mic always being the best, but this in in a church setting known for feedback problems, and we don't really have a sound man, thus the pickup solution and not play through a Shure or any other kind of mic. Thanks, though, I understand exactly what you're saying.

[educatedguess417]

A properly installed soundboard transducer is - in my opinion - generally superior tonally to a bridge-based pickup. Less "harsh/quacky" and somewhat "sweeter" and "woodier" in a mandolin context. Bridge units are marginally more resistant to feedback, but not by much. The K&K's are very good examples, also check the JJB transducers which are "very similar" in all respects.

I would highly recommend budgeting for a suitable preamp. You need a high impedance (minimum 1M, preferably more) with all of these. JJB (above) has a new one out. If you want to do it on the cheap, the Behringer AD121 also works very well.

AL, thanks. Great info. Truly appreciate it. FYI, that JJB preamp is so popular, they are out of stock and taking preorders. I'm probabaly gonna just go with the Behringer though. My first time for this kinda rig, and not a critical situation when it comes to sound.

Again, mucho appreciato,
Educated Guess

[kkmm]

Bridge units are marginally more resistant to feedback

does this refer to the "under the bridge transducer" ? To my experience, "under the bridge/saddle transducer with preamp" does not have the feedback issue. I play with the sound board facing the amplifier speaker and no feedback at all (both guitars and mandolins).

[almeriastrings]

Some mandolin bridges have the transducer embedded in the bridge body vs. an 'undersaddle' as seen on guitars - they are a bit less liable to feedback, but much more prone to 'quack' and harshness than a soundboard transducer, generally speaking.

Personally, I do not much like how they sound. This is just my own rating of the various options from best to worst, 'best' being most natural sounding:

1. Microphone (either stand mount or clip on)
2. Non-piezo transducer, AKG C411 (condenser) or Schertler DYN (dynamic)
3. Soundboard piezo element
4. UST or bridge mounted element

[kkmm]

Some mandolin bridges have the transducer embedded in the bridge body

In the last two days, I just hand built two bridges like this for two of my mandolins, they sound great thru my ACOUSTIC combo amp. I have the same experiences as with my guitars with "under the saddle transducer".

[kkmm]

I also agree that external microphone would be the best to reproduce the acoustic sound, but it has too many requirements:
1) good mic and EQ settings, in my situation, I have to take care of everything, too much to do.
2) limit motion on the stage, moving in and out will produce uneven volume to the audience.
The intergrated transducer gives me a more practical solution, although the sound is not 100% acoustic.
I had instruments with magnetic pickup too, but don't really like them.

[Austin Bob]

Where do I go to set up my account to receive immediate notice in my regular email every time someone responds to this thread?

EG

When you open a thread, at the top just above the first message you will see a banner with Thread Tools. Pick Subscribe from the drop down list.

There's another thread going on right now about amplification, you might want to read through it. Many agree that a K&K internal pickup is a great way to go. Does your church have a PA? If so, look at the LR Baggs Venue, it is a DI box with a built in preamp, plus it has a boost switch. Works for me.

Bob

[almeriastrings]

2) limit motion on the stage, moving in and out will produce uneven volume to the audience.

In my opinion, that is perhaps the major advantage of using a stand-mounted microphone. It is very easy to get even subtle level (and tonal) changes done 'on the fly'. With a transducer, you are limited to trying to vary volume via playing dynamics (which may affect the tone you want) or to using some kind of volume pedal or switch. By 'working the mic' you have a broad palate of volume and tonal options right in front of you, with no fussing. How much 'space' you have, and how much volume before feedback, very much depends on the microphone, the PA system, the room, and operator skill. Lots of variables, and certainly if you want very loud in bad rooms, then pickups may be the only solution.

[kkmm]

In my opinion, that is perhaps the major advantage of using a stand-mounted microphone.

That is also true but I don't really like to be stiff-bodied when playing. When singing, one hold the microphone and moves it in / out as needed, that is certainly a big plus, but one can moves around with the mic in hand too, not when playing an instrument in front of a dynamic microphone (condenser is not possible in this environment as it causes serious feedback, tried that already).
In my home (fairly large), in order to use condenser mic, I put it in the family room and the sound system in the living room.
The mic is hidden behind a wall so it does not "see" the speakers. Only this setup is good for me at home, mainly to see how things work. I also have a head set microphone, with some tricky arrangement, it could be hooked to the instrument with the mic in front of the top sound board. That also works well, but the head set mic is not easily attached to the instrument.