Bass guitar in Celtic music

[Mike Anderson]

The danger here, as always, is in proscribing a very narrow and linear path of musical 'tradition' ... if we decide to exclude drums and brass, not because they were not historically proven to be used by musicians and enjoyed by audiences and dancers, but because it does not serve our thesis, then we can only be driven to a foregone conclusion.

Likewise, to ignore the synth heavy music produced in the eighties and nineties, not because it did not stem directly from the tradition, but because it's not to our tastes, can only cause any exchange to shut down.

I buggered off out of this thread because I figured "well, I've offended enough members for one go" but - maybe not.

Dagger, I consider you to be a splendidly admirable and deeply affecting musician who's obviously deeply steeped in the tradition - that's why I bought your album as soon as I'd viewed one Youtube video. Moreover, there's nothing inherently wrong with the idea of drums (I have zero argument with bass) in trad music. I just didn't like that piece because of the drumming.

Now, when you start talking about heavy synths as with Clannad and later Capercaillie for example - ugh. The exchange from my end certainly does shut down. What some call progression seems to me like its very opposite: simplifying and to paraphrase Woody Allen, "flavor removal" of the music. There is nothing "narrow" about the tradition; people who find it narrow are perhaps (and understandably given the last half-century of Western musical culture) addicted to novelty for its own sake, which I consider to be an unfortunate, even crippling distraction from genuinely profound enjoyment as well as from actually learning the music.

Anyway this has been a fascinating thread in so many ways. I saw a Youtube post today calling the music of Flook mechanical and boring, which runs exactly counter to my feelings about them. I guess we're just all wired differently and it never ceases to amaze me just how differently sometimes. Good wishes to all here.

[Dagger Gordon]

Thanks for those kind words Mike.

From my point of view there is room for it all. Everybody's tastes are different, and indeed my own can vary a lot over time, mood etc.

So I would judge Padraig Rynne's Notify not so much as to whether it's as good as Flook;The Bothy Band;Kilfenora Ceilidh Band (or whoever you choose to compare them to) but as to whether it succeeds on its own terms and if I like it or not. It seemed to me to be pretty well done - atmospheric, good playing, altogether a very tight and subtle unit who featured the bass guitar in what I thought was a good example of not over-playing but adding to and shaping the music in a way which I think works rather well.

I certainly agree with the comments about Danny Thompson. As a long-term John Martyn fan I have listened to him a great deal over the years. There seems to be an underlying suggestion here perhaps that the double bass is better suited to trad music than bass guitar?

As to the jazz element. I can see what you mean by that smooth late night thing, although I have to say that is a kind of jazz I have no interest in. I do agree with M.Marmot that the ECM label can often bring out some great music which has a strong regional identity, most notably perhaps their Scandinavian stuff. Incidentally (and this is not anything to with mandolins or Celtic music) I love some of those early ECM albums by the Brazilian musician Egberto Gismonti. But while I'm at it I have to say that I don't generally seem to enjoy Brazilian music much. Certainly it does have mandolins (usually bandolims actually), lots of good percussion, a very high standard of guitar playing etc but somehow seems to me to often have an over-smooth, middle of the road quality which doesn't do much for me at all. (Talk about writing a whole genre of music off with one sweeping statement!)

If we want to talk about jazz with a strong regional identity, I find I enjoy the music of South African pianist Dollar Brand (aka Abdullah Ibrahim) more and more as I get older.

[Ron McMillan]

Getting back to the origins of the thread, I liked it a lot and thought that the bass played a valuable role. In the near-legendary folk sessions at The Lounge in Lerwick, Shetland, the only instrument ever run through an amp is the electric bass. And it needs that bit of bite to help keep in line massed fiddles, the occasional tenor banjo and the upright piano with the casings removed.

I am always irked by those who shiver at anything they consider 'untraditional'. Because your band doesn't have a bass (or a drummer) doesn't make your brand of music the only authentic one. The Scottish and Irish country dance bands whose music provides so much of the background and inspiration to later generations of musicians around the world, including bluegrass musicians, have been evolving for hundreds of years. Some with drummers and basses, some without. Nobody can claim originality or the 'right' way any more. Similarly, bluegrass traditionalists who pour scorn on people for daring to play without a central mic or with an electric guitar or without cowboy hats are so far from the mark it isn't true.

[mandocrucian]

the ECM label can often bring out some great music which has a strong regional identity, most notably perhaps their Scandinavian stuff.

The Ale Moller/Lena Willemark "Nordan" albums are wonderful folk/jazz fusions (more folk than jazz). I've got a lot of ECM discs of John Abercrombie, Jack DeJohnette. Ralph Towner . There was one by a Norwegian bassist, Barre Phillips, called Three Moon Day which was great. Dave Holland's Conference of the Birds"..... they put out lots of good stuff.

And that middle period Clannad stuff ("Harry's Game", where they were no longer an acoustic trad band, but hadn't become a rock outfit.....I really liked it.

Danny Thompson is really good, but he doesn't have anything on Dave Pegg (in the folk-folk/rock area). Peggy's done some great stuff, both as a groove bassist, and as a melodic (almost an RT on bass) player.

There are as many ways to approach bass playing as there are guitar styles. Phil Lesh is as far away from Tommy Shannon (SRV) as he is from Bootsy Collins or Larry Graham.

(The whole Irish DADGAD guitar playing isn't "traditional"...it dates from the same time period as when Moyhnihan brought in the bouzouki. In fact, you could, depending on your timeline say that even regular tuned guitar in Irish music isn't "traditional" either.

There's Ted Sturgeon's "Law": 90% of everything is crud. I would say that something that falls in the 80-90 percentile is "Crud", cause it still pretty good, but you can't go wrong by putting as much of the 10% cream-of-the-crop, of any genre in the sound system. I'd rather listen to Wayne Shorter than some mediocre folk or mediocre country or half-assed rock band or Kenny G.

[Mike Anderson]

"90% of everything is crud" sure as hell applies to the music industry and no mistake. Lucky for me I've understood for some time that I'm gonna die some day, so precisely 0% of my time is spent listening to mediocre music of any kind. 😊

[Eddie Sheehy]

Speaking of Kenny G.... He walks into an elevator and says: "Man, this place rocks"...

[Bren]

Speaking of Kenny G.... He walks into an elevator and says: "Man, this place rocks"...

I don't know his music much, but I suspect I'd agree with Richard Thompson.

[Paul Cowham]

John Joe Kelly does not play drum kit: he plays bodhran. He is Irish, and has made a huge contribution to developing technique and style on the bodhran.

I completely agree although John Joe (who has Irish roots and my understanding is he now spends much of his time there) grew up and has lived most of his life in Manchester, interestingly he also plays mandolin. His sister Grace is an incredible whistle and fiddle player too - I'm lucky enough to have played in sessions with both of them over the years.

Anyhow, I agree that with most sorts of music it is the musician not the instrument that is the most important thing - so if I'm at a trad gig then I'd rather see a really good tasteful drummer and/or bass guitarist than an average bohran player or double bassist.

If people prefer their trad music without drums I'm certainly not going to argue, as others have said there is plenty of room for all tastes to be accommodated. Before the late 19th century traditional Irish music used mainly fiddle, flute, uillian pipes and whistle (didn't use the concertina or button accordian, the banjo, guitar, bouzouki) so there is certainly scope for the instruments associated with a tradition to change over time.

[Dagger Gordon]

This is Danny Thompson at his best, playing double bass with the late great Scottish musician John Martyn at what seems to have been a fantastic gig in Dublin. Nearly an hour long video.

Magic, really.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjRUR4AuV-A

[DougC]

He gets a little wild with it... this is how I keep him interested in playing this stuff. Then we'll fall back out into the straight trad version to end it. We often joke about hearing the Trad Police sirens in the distance.

O.K. You two are under arrest! Hand over your instruments. Now.
Sherrif - County Hennepin, MN

[foldedpath]

O.K. You two are under arrest! Hand over your instruments. Now.
Sherrif - County Hennepin, MN

Heh... we're very careful which venues we do this in, and the car is parked right outside with the engine running. Come and get us, Trad Coppers!

[Paul Kotapish]

Danny Thompson is really good, but he doesn't have anything on Dave Pegg (in the folk-folk/rock area). Peggy's done some great stuff, both as a groove bassist, and as a melodic (almost an RT on bass) player.

We'll have to cordially disagree on this one, Niles. Dave Pegg is amazing and exciting, and I agree that he can really play the hell out of traditional dance tunes on the bass guitar, but it's not an approach or a sound I'm much interested in hearing when I'm listening to Irish music. I will confess that I'm not all that wild about the whole Celtic-folk-rock thing in general, so put me in the stuffed-shirt camp.

Huzzah for variety in taste and opinions!

[mandocrucian]

Ever hear Pegg on fretless? Sometimes I'd swear it was RT an octave or two lower.

[kmmando]

Hi James,

yes, there is a fall back indoor option, only used once out of 6 nights last summer, which was great. Mind you, it can be a bit cold and draughty in the old palace, but great fun, as the video hopefully communicates. Freeland Barbour is an absolute master at generating dunt in the melody, almost as if he is playing a diatonic button box.

And a good new year to you to Dagger! In February!! Alison Smith is a very highly regarded dance band fiddler, who played with us briefly 20 years or so back. She took a break from the band scene for quite a while, but expressed an interest in gigging with us again, if there were any slots. So this was her first gig, unrehearsed, just sight read by the way. Mairi Campbell remains our no. 1 fiddler, but its great to have such a quality fiddler around to stand in. She has a great solid dig in her playing, she is and has never been a folky fiddler, and really knows how to play fiddle for dance in a proper dance band.

[Jock]

I grew up dancing in the village hall to the Incredible Fling Band (and others) the original line up of which featured "Big Dave Hardy" on bass, and it didn't do any of us much harm