Whats up with Mandos?

[Mandosummers]

A friend has a Collings A. It’s a GREAT sounding mando. I stopped by Gruhn's the other day and played a couple of identical Collings A's and they both were very thin and tinny, and it wasn’t just the room. The Gibsons I have played are all over the map, some great, some not so, with the worst being a late 1920's fern that was a thin and tinny gourd and the next worst being, believe it or not, a Loar. I don't think anyone would debate that Loar was a great luthier. So my question is... Whats up with mandos? Even among mandos made by the same luthier the sound sometimes seems to be all over the map. I realize everyone has different tastes in tone but with mandos it’s like some kind of magic either does or doesn’t happen during the making. And what does a luthier do if they have spent months laboring on an instrument and he/she sees it’s just not going to "have it" regardless of what they do?

[Jeff Mando]

I think that is the magic that makes one instrument more special than another!

[DataNick]

I humbly submit it's your subjective perception more than anything else. Next time I would take a fellow Mando guy/gal and see if we could reach consensus on what we're hearing. We all have good, bad, or just different days, etc. As much as I really do not gravitate towards a Collings, having played several, I would not call the tonality I experienced as "tinny".

[sunburst]

One of the things we learn (if we pay attention) is that opinions vary. Rest assured that each of the mandolins that you labeled as "thin and tinny" would sound great to someone, somewhere. What you've discovered is that your opinion favors certain mandolins strongly over others, and what you seem to not have learned yet is that those are your opinions and do not correspond to the opinions of all others.

Having built and repaired instruments for nearly 30 years, and having worked for a manufacturer and occasionally tended display/sales booths at shows and festivals, I've seen in over and over. One good player will select one instrument over all others as the very best, then along comes another player of equal ability who will completely disregard the instrument chosen by the first, and have his/her own individual favorite instrument. It's the way it is; people have opinions, often strongly held opinions, but they are just that - opinions.
Personally, I've never encountered a Collings or a Loar that sounded bad. I prefer some of them to others, but I know that that is only my opinion and I'm sure that there are others who's opinions are completely different.

[Willie Poole]

One thing that makes mandolins sound different is time, as they get older of course they are going to change the way they sound due to wood shrinkage etc...It has been said that no two Loars sound the same exactly but I am sure there must be two somewhere out there that sound the same....Another thing is the grain of the wood even though they may have been carved with wood from the same tree, different size tone bars also can make a difference, the way they are set up, bridge material, these are just a few of the things that can make them sound different...

Hope that helps some...

[Tobin]

Not to pick nits, but Lloyd Loar was not a luthier for Gibson. He was an "acoustic engineer". His input was in the design/specs and final inspection, but he didn't build the instruments with his own hands (unless I'm completely mis-educated on the history here). The craftspeople who actually built the mandolins that Loar signed may or may not have been actual luthiers either, I'm not sure. It was, after all, a factory setting. And that's what it boils down to, really. In any production environment, there will be tolerances and variations in quality.

Small shop luthiers can better control their quality and consistency if they don't have to worry about meeting production schedules or volume quotas. Every piece of wood is different, and even if all their work was built to exactly the same measurements, each will sound different due to the variations in the wood. Talented luthiers will adjust the grading of the tops and such, in order to shoot for a consistent tone (using tap-tuning or other methods). But it isn't realistic in a factory production environment.

Such is the nature of hand-crafted instruments using natural materials.

[Mickey King]

To me, mandolins at Gruhn's never seem to sound spectacular, but most do at Carter's. So IS it the room?

[samlyman]

Another factor to consider is that instruments need to be played. I own an exceptional Collings MT2V but it always sounds rather thin and tinny when it comes out of the case. After playing for 10-15 minutes it just comes alive and is everything I need it to be. Instruments that are new or have not been played in a long time may need lots of playing time to shine. Mandolins with Adirondack tops are known by many to need a significant break-in time.

[OldSausage]

To me, mandolins at Gruhn's never seem to sound spectacular, but most do at Carter's. So IS it the room?

Yes it most decidedly is. It is impossible to underestimate the difference the room (and even where you are in it) makes to how a mandolin sounds while you're playing it.

[Caleb]

In my experience, instruments tend to sound their worst in music stores. I don't know why but it seems to be true. Environment? Expectations? I've played several Collings mandolins, and while some sound better than others, none sounded bad. Not even close.

[roysboy]

A friend has a Collings A. It’s a GREAT sounding mando. I stopped by Gruhn's the other day and played a couple of identical Collings A's and they both were very thin and tinny, and it wasn’t just the room. The Gibsons I have played are all over the map, some great, some not so, with the worst being a late 1920's fern that was a thin and tinny gourd and the next worst being, believe it or not, a Loar. I don't think anyone would debate that Loar was a great luthier. So my question is... Whats up with mandos? Even among mandos made by the same luthier the sound sometimes seems to be all over the map. I realize everyone has different tastes in tone but with mandos it’s like some kind of magic either does or doesn’t happen during the making. And what does a luthier do if they have spent months laboring on an instrument and he/she sees it’s just not going to "have it" regardless of what they do?

I can absolutely relate to your observations above .My first thought would be the quality of the set-up . However , Eastmans , for instance , are readily available and in stock at many shops in our area . Recently I've noticed quite a variance in tones in their instruments - same models and otherwise . And quite extreme . I played several Goldtones that blew my sox off and a few others that must have been 'built on a Monday or Friday "....just BAD sounding . I have yet to play a Michel Kelley that even approaches GOOD let alone exceptional ...but I haven't played as many of their instruments. A year or so back I was at a jam next to an Eastman 815 - beautiful-looking instrument - but even the owner remarked about how disappointed he was in the sound next to my ( then ) Eastman MD 305 . He was right ...very ,very thin sounding with no character . I , too, played a Gibson ( model ??? ) that was lacking in character and projection . I've been a listener at a few festival jams where there was no shortage of quality makes and scratched my head when they were played alongside each other ( and often alongside much more inexpensive makes and models ) at the differences in projection and tone . Again , I appreciate that a lot of the time these may be set-up issues but I've certainly noticed the differences as you've pointd out . It really pays to play a lot of instruments ...I learned that in a hurry . And it really pays to know what you might be able to do to address tone or playability issues in an instrument you might consider purchasing .

[Frank Russell]

So many variables. First of all, played many many Collings, never heard one that sounded tinny at all, quite the opposite. My favorite no longer existing music store in SoCal was semi close to the beach, and nearly every mandolin, old and new, had crappy rusted strings on them if they'd been there more than a week or two. They all sounded like poop after a while. New strings, proper setup (never an issue on Collings I've seen), the room's acoustics, noise level, and your vantage point are all factors. I used to prefer to shop with a friend, so they could play it and I could sit in front and listen. That gave me a real objective sense of each one's sound. Some mandos just don't carry up to your ear while you're playing, but sound incredible in front of you. My perspective, anyway. Keep trying. Frank.

[GKWilson]

I'm not a big fan of the Collings sound. I would call it a little modern and bright for me.
But that sound is appealing to many people. They are a high quality instrument.
Like Sam above I have a very nice mandolin with an Adi top. [Like most Collings I believe.]
Out of the case it takes a few minutes to wake up. I don't know if it's my body temp that warms it up,
or the top vibrating for awhile, or a combination of both. But all of a sudden it's like someone flipped a switch.
So to be fair to an instrument I think you need to play it for more than one verse of 'Whiskey'.
And then if you can have someone else play it so that you can step in front and see how well it projects.
Good luck in your search.
Gary

[GKWilson]

You've got some good ideas there Frank. 'sit in front and listen'
I guess I was typing when you were posting.

[crisscross]

I don't know if it's my body temp that warms it up,
or the top vibrating for awhile, or a combination of both. But all of a sudden it's like someone flipped a switch.

I rather think it's your ears getting used to the relatively thin sound of any mandolin, like your eyes getting used to the dark and after a while seeing some things.

[Larry Simonson]

I would like to suggest an experiment. Next time you have a few instruments to try, determine a ranking by playing them all for a while, then have another player play them behind an opaque screen while you listen, and redetermine a ranking. Would the two rankings match? I make no predictions but would be interested in your results.

[Steve Ostrander]

In my experience, instruments tend to sound their worst in music stores. I don't know why but it seems to be true. Environment? Expectations? I've played several Collings mandolins, and while some sound better than others, none sounded bad. Not even close.

I think that the showroom at Elderly has very good acoustics. Of course, the building is a 100+ year-old former Odd Fellows lodge, and they still get a lot of odd fellows in there. I have to admit that I'm one of them......

[bayAreaDude]

My Collings MT2 sounds like a completely different instrument with different strings and different thicknesses of picks. I like it with a pretty thick pick like a blue chip, but not so much with a thin pick that just can't seem to drive it hard enough to make it sing.

[Mandoplumb]

I determine how good a mandolin by how clear the notes are and how well balanced it is. My Dearstone gives you everything it's got where ever you note it. Note the E string at the octave, play against the open A the notes are about the same volume. I have played others that are that balanced that I didn't like, that's opinion, still a good mandolin just not my cup of tea.

[Astro]

Its because they're held tight and force fed. Can you sing when you're full ? Not their fault. What other instrument that small always has to have four courses?

I'm switching to free range mandos.

[allenhopkins]

I like some mandolins more.

I like other mandolins less.

So, what's up with mandos?

[GKWilson]

I rather think it's your ears getting used to the relatively thin sound of any mandolin, like your eyes getting used to the dark and after a while seeing some things.

That could well be. But it's funny it doesn't happen with my Engelman, my old European Spruce, or my old Cedar topped mando's.
Gary

[DHopkins]

Whats up with mandos? Even among mandos made by the same luthier the sound sometimes seems to be all over the map. I realize everyone has different tastes in tone but with mandos it’s like some kind of magic either does or doesn’t happen during the making.

So, what's new? It seems to me that it's pretty much always been that way.

[Londy]

I like some mandolins more.

I like other mandolins less.

So, what's up with mandos?

I couldn't agree more.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Mickey King - "To me, mandolins at Gruhn's never seem to sound spectacular, but most do at Carter's. So IS it the room ?". It could be a lot of factors together Mickey. Room acoustics can make an instrument sound good or worse.Also temperature & humidity affect mandolins to quite an extent. The YouTube clips that i've seen of Chris Thile & Adam Steffey playing mandolins at Carters,always sound a bit thin & tinny to my ears due to too much reverb in the recording. If the recording is accurate,then Carters' room is much too 'live' to get the true sound of a mandolin (IMHO). Some damping around the walls would help kill that reverb.off. IMHO,you can only get a reasonable idea regarding how any mandolin will sound in the store. If it sounds good in the store,most times it will sound much better in your home when it's acclimatised & settled down a bit. Not to mention changing the ''possibly''' very worn out strings & checking the whole set-up,
Ivan