I tried John Hardy once using a flute, a nylon string guitar, a ukulele and an irish tenor banjo. Do I have the right to call this Bluegrass? Guess that's up to you to decide
I tried John Hardy once using a flute, a nylon string guitar, a ukulele and an irish tenor banjo. Do I have the right to call this Bluegrass? Guess that's up to you to decide
Well .... I guess it would depend on just what the audience considers Bluegrass s and their expectations. I certainly do not expect to hear a hammered dulcimer in a Bluegrass band, or a drum for that matter. Good music is just that and it can be played on any number and kind of instruments. You can play Wheel Hoss on a Sax but that doesn't make it 'Grass. In my opinion Bluegrass is a string band music with very specific instrumental and vocal requirements.
I love hanging out with mandolin nerds . . . . . Thanks peeps ...
Usually Picking...My sentiments exactly...spoken from a man that lives in the heart of bluegrass country, Kentucky...Thanks...
For a long time I have tried to find a good definition of bluegrass and I think you have come up with one that is very close to defining it....It`s not really the songs you play or the instruments that you play it with, and while they are important, it is also the way it is delivered and the story behind the music and words...
This has gotten off of the subject and I think Allen is right with what we call "TRUE BLUEGRASS" so the five basic instruments that I named in the original post are it, I guess.....My self I don`t think bluegrass will ever get rid of the banjo, that is the mainstay instrument no matter what Nickel Creek says...Lol
Willie
I agree with Willie, Monroe's wasn't what has come to be known as bluegrass until Scruggs. If there is one indispensable instrument for bluegrass it is the banjo. There is no problem with a banjo, just with a lot if banjo pickers.
I've noticed there's more Bluegrass bands than there are Bluegrass fiddlers to go around.
Harmonica and fiddle fit in the same place. I know from real-life experience. My harp playing buddy can crank out those fiddle tunes, like nobody's business. We'll call and answer. I'll harmonize him, but we never trounce on each other.
Like Ol Bill, I personally am not a fan of dobro. I don't mind what Jerry Douglas does with Union Station. Union Station sometimes incorporates a wallop box too. Tasteful, for sure. They should call it Softgrass.
Honestly, I think the piano roll is as good as a banjo, but good luck finding a piano picker that's both able and willing. Sure, Bruce Hornsby, but he's busy, and never comes through my little town.
"Well, I don't know much about bands but I do know you can't make a living selling big trombones, no sir. Mandolin picks, perhaps..."
And if we're at a BG jam and no banjo players show up, are we at a bluegrass jam still? Or did It become something else?
"When you learn an old time fiddle tune, you make a friend for life"
My 2 cents: Mandolin has and is currently used in Classical musical settings: mandolin orchestras, guest solo spots playing concertos, duets, etc. However when I attempted to join our local Chamber Music Orchestra, the conductor refused telling me that there was no place for mandolin in a "regular" orchestral setting. I was "invited" to possibly work up a Vivaldi concerto to do as a one off type, guest spot thing, but no regular membership. I guess though mandolin can be used to "play" Classical music, it is not "accepted" as an orchestral instrument.
Is it possible that one can "play" bluegrass music on just about any instrument, but a "Bluegrass band" is more limited?
Food for thought...
1994 Gibson F5L - Weber signed
"Mandolin brands are a guide, not gospel! I don't drink koolaid and that Emperor is naked!"
"If you wanna get soul Baby, you gots to get the scroll..."
"I would rather play music anyday for the beggar, the thief, and the fool!"
"Perfection is not attainable; but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence" Vince Lombardi
Playing Style: RockMonRoll Desperado Bluegrass Desperado YT Channel
Cello was the first instrument that popped into my head. Crooked Still was not exactly bluegrass, but they certainly had a bluegrass feel with a fiddle, a banjo, a cello and a double bass. I saw Sarah Jarosz accompanied live by fiddle and cello. Again, not pure bluegrass, but it still has that sound. I think cello would make a great addition to a bluegrass jam. I certainly wouldn't turn one away. With all the treble instruments in your typical lineup (fiddle, mandolin, banjo) a cello could carve out its own sonic space.
Northfield Artist Series F5 (2 bar, Adirondack)
If I went to a concert and there was no banjo, I wouldn't think I had been to a bluegrass concert. That doesn't mean that every song had to include a banjo but the banjo had to be there most of the time. It also doesn't mean that I wouldn't enjoy what I heard, just that it wasn't bluegrass. I am probably alone in this but I don't think the music in Old Brother Where Art Thou is bluegrass. It is pre bluegrass or what we called hillbilly when I was growing up ( I think I just told my age) just my 2cents worth
I think Della Mae is unequivocally bluegrass, and they do not have a banjo. Manzanita by Tony Rice is, I think, clearly a bluegrass record, and it has no banjo.
OTOH, I do agree that the O Brother soundtrack is really more like proto-bluegrass, but to me, it has nothing to do with instrumentation, it is all about the feel. Bluegrass has a drive that I don't hear on the O Brother soundtrack.
Northfield Artist Series F5 (2 bar, Adirondack)
Now we're spending our time talking about "what is or isn't bluegrass." Hope we packed lunches…
Let's go back to the original question. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that a well-known contemporary band -- e.g. Del McCoury or Rhonda Vincent -- is bluegrass. OK?
Now: what if one of the following instruments were permanently added to either band:
1. Hammered dulcimer
2. Autoharp
3. Harmonica
4. Cello
5. Accordion
6. Appalachian dulcimer
7. Drum kit
8. Piano
9. Kazoo (jus' kiddin')
Would you then not have a bluegrass band? Would the instrument fit in -- could it have a role -- how would the changes made in the band's sound strike you? Horrible, interesting, welcome?
Willie asked which instrument could be added to the "standard" bluegrass lineup, and still preserve the essential concept of bluegrass, while enhancing a particular band's music. Feel free to say "none of the above," or to suggest another.
"What is bluegrass" is a well-beaten dead horse; there'll never be total agreement on that question. Let's focus down on a more manageable issue, OK?
Allen Hopkins
Gibsn: '54 F5 3pt F2 A-N Custm K1 m'cello
Natl Triolian Dobro mando
Victoria b-back Merrill alumnm b-back
H-O mandolinetto
Stradolin Vega banjolin
Sobell'dola Washburn b-back'dola
Eastmn: 615'dola 805 m'cello
Flatiron 3K OM
Ok, Allen you done hurt my feelings, I'm taking my engraved set of spoons and going home!
Joe
Allen, I'm probably not answering exactly the question you asked. For one thing, Del and Rhonda are so well along in their careers that I wouldn't expect a big change in sound from either. But looking back over the instruments mentioned thus far:
Mandola and octave are a done deal. Folks like Tim O'Brien, Sarah Jarosz, and Sierra Hull switch over when they need to, especially when they need the extra sustain and bass for playing solo or in a duo. Go to a bluegrass festival these days and you'll hear them.
But I'll vote for accordion. Lots of it in the early Monroe Columbia recordings, and Bill's momma played accordion so it's the primal bluegrass instrument in a way. And also because the way accordion is used in sympathetic types of music from the British Isles and in Cajun, Zydeco, and Tex-Mex. E.g., Peter Rowan, ex-Blue Grass Boy, must have been one of the first English-language musicians to record with Flaco Jimenez if not the first.
Also clarinet, if only because of Andy Statman; but also because of the connection with Swing, the modal music of the world when bluegrass started, and the two titans, Benny Goodman and Artie Shaw. The dry sound fits right in with string band instruments and there's plenty to rediscover there. (And for sure, Benjamin David Goodman and Arthur Jacob Arshawsky were not unfamiliar with klezmer.)
Would it still be bluegrass? I don't care much myself. Labels come after the music. No one thought that this kind of hillbilly music even needed a name like "bluegrass" until the late 50s or early-to-mid 60s (depending on who you trust on this) and the heavy lifting had mostly been done by then.
I both saw and liked Della Mae at Summergrass back in August, and their talent, musicianship, songwriting is top notch. However I must agree with their own self categorization of the genre of music they play. Check their website: they advertise themselves as an "Americana" band, not a Bluegrass band!
Again that's their own (the artist themselves) self-description!
Per their Google description:
Della Mae
http://dellamae.com/
Home page of Della Mae, an americana group from Nashville, TN. A band of goddesses working for peace.
Last edited by DataNick; Dec-28-2014 at 7:25pm. Reason: Clarification
1994 Gibson F5L - Weber signed
"Mandolin brands are a guide, not gospel! I don't drink koolaid and that Emperor is naked!"
"If you wanna get soul Baby, you gots to get the scroll..."
"I would rather play music anyday for the beggar, the thief, and the fool!"
"Perfection is not attainable; but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence" Vince Lombardi
Playing Style: RockMonRoll Desperado Bluegrass Desperado YT Channel
To be honest, I hesitate to call my own band "bluegrass" simply because I wish to avoid the needless arguments about what is or is not bluegrass. You can prune the tree of bluegrass until all that remains is Bill Monroe, and sometimes it is just easier to call yourself something else and avoid the acrimony.
To get back to the question at hand, I still think cello is one of the few non-bluegrass instruments with the capacity to add something to a bluegrass band. My band has bounced around the idea of adding a cello, but the right opportunity and the right musician has not presented itself.
I am probably in the minority that thinks harmonica can function just fine in a bluegrass band or jam. The key is that the harmonica player has to embrace a role that is very different than that of a harp player in a blues band. In blues, the harmonica is a frontline instrument that riffs over the entire progression. If you try this in a bluegrass jam, you will likely get some dirty looks, and not undeservedly.
Bluegrass, at its best, is ensemble music in the way that jazz in ensemble music. The harmonica players that I have heard that fit well in a bluegrass jam understand this and embrace a role similar to a fiddle. They play breaks and maybe some tasteful fills, but mostly stay out of the way during the vocals and during other musicians' breaks. It is when they (that is harmonica players) try to play over an entire song/tune that problems develop.
I have seem similar problems associated with blues guitarists who are accustomed to being the focal point of the entire song; they simply don't know when not to play, and wind up playing pentatonics over the entire song. It doesn't mean that the guitar doesn't work in a bluegrass band, it simply means the musician must re-evaluate his or her role in the context of the ensemble.
Northfield Artist Series F5 (2 bar, Adirondack)
I think we may just be in the middle of a transition where the definition of bluegrass is being broadened by the general public. Same thing happened to Rock and I remember people arguing what is and isn't rock but in the end it didn't matter because the common vernacular of the general public will decide what it will be called, not the insiders who grew up with it. The term Rock was of course eventually broadened to include almost everything.
Meanwhile I agree that cello, harmonica, maybe even hand drum or cajon could add to whatever you want to call this modern "old time" type Neo Americana BGey stuff.
But I bet if it has a banjo, mando, stand up bass, and guitar, 99% of the public are going to call it Bluegrass no matter what any of us think.
And if you really want to know who will eventually label it, just go to Pandora and plug in your bands name and see what it says.
PS: dwc and Nick--Thanks for introducing me to Della Mae. Here they are playing at the Buhler BlueGrass Festival of 2014. I guess someone forgot to remind them they wernt Bluegrass.
I agree it doesn't sound like Bill Monroe Bluegrass. But Buddy Holly Rock doesnt sound much like Pink Floyd Rock either.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oybo1rUoqk
Last edited by Astro; Dec-29-2014 at 6:56am.
No matter where I go, there I am...Unless I'm running a little late.
Generally I agree with you, however I will point out that a sub-classification system began to be used in the 70s when it came to at least rock and r&b/jazz. I listened almost exclusively to 2 radio stations in Philly in the 70s. One as a self titled "Progressive-Rock" station and the other "Progressive-Jazz". Buddy Holly was relegated to 50s or "Oldies" rock n roll and would never have been played on the progressive-rock station that played the likes of ELP, Yes, Genesis, Elton John (some of his non-pop stuff), Alman Brothers, CSN&Y, etc. And yet the groups I just named shows a pretty eclectic playlist as well.
As the consumer, genre-labeling helps. If I want to have an evening of "Southern Rock" and I go to a show, I expect bands like The Outlaws, Allman Brothers, Skynard, Molly Hatchett, etc. not McCartney & Wings. Is it all the same "kind" of music; well in a general sense yes, but as consumers we do have a sophisticated sense of taste. What's happening in my view at Bluegrass festivals (continuing your thoughts) is that all sorts of acts are being booked because they play "Acoustic Music", but they're not necessarily "Bluegrass". I've seen Folk, Country, Americana, Blues, and Jam Band acts at so called "Bluegrass" festivals.
So in a sense, I felt like a victim of bait and switch when I was exposed to some of these bands that going in I thought were "Bluegrass" acts.
Just my 2 cents and it's nice to see the discussion remain civil in this thread!
So to bring the discussion back to point, with the variation of groups being called "Bluegrass" invariably instrumentation starts going beyond the traditional 5-piece model, and if anything is "Bluegrass" then I guess any instrument is fair game.
1994 Gibson F5L - Weber signed
"Mandolin brands are a guide, not gospel! I don't drink koolaid and that Emperor is naked!"
"If you wanna get soul Baby, you gots to get the scroll..."
"I would rather play music anyday for the beggar, the thief, and the fool!"
"Perfection is not attainable; but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence" Vince Lombardi
Playing Style: RockMonRoll Desperado Bluegrass Desperado YT Channel
Just as long as we don't accept the spoons, I'm open for anything.
I'm giving up my spoons, (except for chilli), and getting me a tambourine deluxe.
Joe
IMHO - Prior to Earl Scruggs joining the Bluegrass Boys,'Bluegrass' hadn't reached it's ultimate,definitive band instrumentation line-up. For that reason,when Scruggs joined,the band became know as the ''Original'' Bluegrass band,& i believe that the banjo became the 'defining' instrument. Prior to that Bill Monroe's band was simply a 'string band',a good one as anybody would attest - but not yet a Bluegrass band as we know it today.
Any band not having a banjo played in Scruggs style or an 'associated' style (think Bill Keith),can't IMHO, be called a Bluegrass band. I have Manzanita & several other 'String Band' recordings ie. 'The Dave Grisman Quintet' - they also are not Bluegrass recordings. In actual fact,the music is such that even if the band did inclued a banjo player,the 'style' of music isn't Bluegrass.To me, it's more akin to Jazz being played on Bluegrass associated instrumentation. A term arose several years back, ''New Acoustic Music''. That seems to sum up the style of such recordings as Manzanita & others like it.
Simply stuffing a banjo into a group's line-up won't make the music suddenly become 'Bluegrass',neither do i think that performing songs from outside the Bluegrass repertoir with Bluegrass instrumentation,make it a 'proper' Bluegrass number,it's simply what it is a non-Bluegras song performed in 'Bluegrass style'. ''Fox On The Run'' the way the Country Gents did it is one of those (IMHO).
We've all seen & heard songs from non-Bluegrass genres perfomed by a Bluegrass band,but that doesn't make them Bluegrass songs. ''Beatle Country'' by Joe Val & The Charles River Valley Boys is one recording that i have that consists of songs entirely from a non-Bluegrass genre. I think of it as Bluegrass 'of a sort',but not a 'true' Bluegrass recording,any more than recording pieces of Classical music in a Bluegrass style would make those pieces Bluegrass music.
I know that others have their own equally valid opinions,but,it was the banjo that set fire to the Bluegrass fuse, & off it went like a rocket,& for that reason if no other - no banjo = not Bluegrass (for me),
Ivan
Weber F-5 'Fern'.
Lebeda F-5 "Special".
Stelling Bellflower BANJO
Tokai - 'Tele-alike'.
Ellis DeLuxe "A" style.
Ivan, speaks the truth.....There are some songs that were recorded by Jim and Jesse that get billed as bluegrass but are no where near it and I never considered Doc Watson as a bluegrasser but he played on a lot of bluegrass festivals...I like a lot of different kinds of music but I do know bluegrass when I hear it unlike a lot of you younger folks that weren`t around when us struggling musicians were trying to get bluegrass to catch on, that is not to say you aren`t entiiled to your opinion and you can classify it anyway you want but I know what I like and what it is called....to my way of thinking those five instruments that I mentioned in my original post are what makes up bluegrass and we don`t need any more, playing a viola to me is the same as a fiddle, same with a mandola, same as a mandolin....Skaggs played viola and fiddle on some recordings and I doubt if anyone could tell the difference...I am not against a dobro but it has to be played very smooth and not over bearing for me to classify it as bluegrass....JUST MY OPINIONS...
Willie
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