Should the Thumb Press Against the Neck on a V-neck Mandolin?

[PicknMark]

Hello All,

I am new here. Thanks for your help.

On one of Mike Marshall's free instruction videos he says to place the thumb against the back of the neck (as opposed the holding the neck against the crotch between thumb and finger) I would like to know if this also works with a V-neck mandolin. It feels a bit awkward to me.

Also, what are the benefits of placing the thumb against the neck?

Thanks,

Mark

[Fred Keller]

Most of the pickers I know and have seen use more of a violin grip (neck resting on the knuckles of the thumb and forefinger, no palm touching, some space showing between neck and hand) not a thumb-on-the-back-of-the-neck classical guitar position. Can't argue with Mike Marshall but I don't see it used much.

[Mark Wilson]

I'l give you my view after 1.5 years. Holding the neck in the 'crotch' works for simple and slow but as speed comes it traps the hand and doesn't allow your fingers (especially your pinky) to flex laterally as freely as they will when you hold it 'properly'. You end up shifting your hand around to reach notes that otherwise can be reached without shifting if you learn to hold like MM suggests.

Watch better players play without moving their thumb and compare that to players that flail their thumb(and hand) around compensating for the improper left hand position.

It's a pain to correct if you wait too long - ask me how I know

Try holding both ways and compare how much better the fingers can move laterally when holding correctly

ymmv

[JeffD]

This should clear it up. Mike says to avoid putting the neck in the crotch of your hand, and also to avoid the thumb on the middle of the back of the neck.

[PicknMark]

Thanks everyone. Looking back at the video more carefully I see that he does in fact recommend the thumb knuckle should be on the top of the neck (though he does not always do this It is starting to feel more comfortable. I guess I will try to stick with it.

Thanks again.

[ralph johansson]

I've said this as couple of times before, and I believe it's also clear form Marshall's video. You just don't hold or support the neck with your left hand - the left hand is there only to fret the strings. And I personally never think of placing the thumb here or there - I just secure the mandolin in place using a strap or the points or a tiny portion of my right forearm, then bring my left hand to the neck of the mandolin. The thumb will usually land on the side of the neck with part of the outer joint above the fretboard;
the points of contact between my left hand and the neck would then be that outer joint and the base of my index finger.
Contact, not support.

Barre chords will make my thumb slide a little lower on the side, but never below the middle of the neck - and, of course, that position in no way corresponds to that so-called classical position on guitar, as the neck of a guitar is much wider.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From JeffD - "Mike says to avoid putting the neck in the crotch of your hand...". As with all things,it's one person's opinion. Holding the mandolin so that the neck rests inthe crotch of your hand hasn't held John Reischman back !. IMHO,do what's easiest & most comfortable for you,after all,it's you playing not anybody else. Mike Marshall also recommends not leaning back when playing,but to lean forward slightly - he's obviously never had chronic lower back pain. Leaning back in my chair hasn't prevented me from improving in any way whatsoever. In other words,do what suits you as long as you reach your goal,
Ivan

Personally,i hold the mandolin with the ball of my thumb (top joint) pressing lightly on the bass side of the neck.It's simply what's natural to me.

[Mark Wilson]

You just don't hold or support the neck with your left hand - the left hand is there only to fret the strings...

I just secure the mandolin in place using a strap or the points or a tiny portion of my right forearm, then bring my left hand to the neck of the mandolin.

The thumb will usually land on the side of the neck with part of the outer joint above the fretboard..

Contact, not support.

It took me a year and a half of floundering to arrive at this. Of course I had a teacher(myself) that don't know jack.

You should write a book.

[JeffD]

As with all things,it's one person's opinion. Holding the mandolin so that the neck rests in the crotch of your hand hasn't held John Reischman back !.

I guess if one can sound like John Reischman I have no argument. I don't think one gets to sounding like John by putting the neck in the crotch of the hand, any more than one gets to sounding like Adam Steffey by pinky planting.

[PicknMark]

Thanks, and thanks for introducing me to Reischman.

[Bertram Henze]

You just don't hold or support the neck with your left hand - the left hand is there only to fret the strings. And I personally never think of placing the thumb here or there - I just secure the mandolin in place using a strap or the points or a tiny portion of my right forearm, then bring my left hand to the neck of the mandolin. The thumb will usually land on the side of the neck with part of the outer joint above the fretboard;
the points of contact between my left hand and the neck would then be that outer joint and the base of my index finger.
Contact, not support.

It took me a year and a half of floundering to arrive at this. Of course I had a teacher(myself) that don't know jack.

You should write a book.

I must admit, at this point, that it can help to have a teacher (other than self) for the very basics before moving on.
Being tought how to hold the violin (under the chin, and with the chin alone) in my youth successfully prevented me from even trying to do anything but fretting with my left hand.
But even without a teacher or a book, watching violinists (not fiddlers) on youtube conveys much of the essential information. The thumb is there to counter fretting forces, not instrument weight.

[Eric C.]

I never much pay attention to where my thumbs at while playing. What matters is where the fingers lay on the strings to get the best tone. The thumb will naturally go where it needs to be.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From JeffD - "I guess if one can sound like John Reischman I have no argument....".Or even Ronnie McCoury who holds his mandolin the same way,as do many others. - ie. Shawn Lane from 'Blue Highway',although his thumb does wander around a bit. Adam Steffey holds his mandolin like that at times,as does Mike Compton. All they're doing is what's natural & easy for them. Why make things more difficult by constraining your own technique to what 'others' do ?,
Ivan

[JeffD]

Its not what others do, really. Its more, to me at least, what respected teachers suggest.

Ivan you got me so thinking about this I took my thoughts and hammered together a blog post.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Jeff - I thoroughly understand your points & i agree entirely - but - some folks simply can't do what teachers,however respected, suggest. It's to those folks that i say ''go with what works for you''. I'd hate to think how i'd fare if i was fortunate enough to have lessons from any of our finest players. They'd probably pick holes all over my technique,but what i've taught myself 'works for me',however faulty my technique might be. I think 'maybe',doing what teachers suggest,if it doesn't come easily & naturally,then it becomes a distraction from actually playing.
When it comes to 'breaking the rules',i always think of the great Austrian Pianist & teacher,Artur Schnabel. For many of the great Piano works,there's an 'orthodox' way of fingering them on the Piano. Schnabel was famous ('infamous' at first, amongst his contemporaries) for simplifying the fingering technique & he became famous for it. He gained many pupils due to his 'simplified techniques' who became renowned Pianists in their own right,
Ivan

[Astro]

Reischman breaks most of the norms, yet gets some of the best tone on the planet. He breaks the norms due to variances in his anatomy and his style of play. He hyperextends his thumb (backwards), angles the pick up instead of down, wraps his thumb all the way over the fretboard, buries the neck in the crotch, and removes his index and pinky from the fretboard when not in play. He favors the one shoulder strap "Monroestyle" that most finesse players argue against.

Yet he gets it done on a virtuoso world league level. Why ?

It fits his anatomy. Like Thile said, its all done to establish the most natural and free position for you. So what is taught is "the norm" which means the most common denominator for most people. And that is where everyone should start because its all weird at first. Then after a time what works best for you will shake out from that norm. So dont ignore the norm. That is your highest probability for working best. But after you learn that, you may tweak away from it as your anatomy dictates.

Also, our anatomy may even dictate our style of play. Reishman is extremely tasteful and even economical in his runs. I love it, but its not the blazing agile speed of Thile's slim fingers and long palm which I also like. They have different styles based on their anatomy which maybe partially dictates what/how they play.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Astro - I agree with much of what you said,but,long before any player ''gets to know what the norm is'' from a teacher,they'll most likely have already done what's easiest for them anyway. Personally,even after 9 years of playing mandolin,i don't have a clue as to what the 'norm' really is. I just hope it stays clear of me,'cos my playing is perfect . As you say,John Reischman does break a lot of what we might perceive as the 'basic rules', & somehow i doubt that he'd inflict his personal technique on any of his pupils. Certainly,his way of holding a pick is non-transferable,unless you have a similarly double jointed thumb,
Ivan

[jshane]

I took my thoughts and hammered together a blog post.

Thanks for the blog post. In general, I think you are correct. And I think that there is another point to be made--

Breaking, or modifying, a "standard" is an intermediate to advanced decision, in my opinion. It is a decision that is best made when one is capable of deciding that "this" works better for ME than "that", under "these" conditions. For a beginner, the decision to break with the norms confounds what is "better" (considered over the long run and under all future conditions) with what is "easier" (usually considered only in the "now" and NOT as applied to all future conditions).

Beginners who choose the non-standard are often (not always) inhibited in the future by that decision, and then have to work pretty hard to un-do that choice--- because by then it is often pretty ingrained.

Most of us are playing for enjoyment, not livelihood, and so I guess we should do whatever makes us happy. BUT, we should also recognize that choices that give a nod to short term expediency often have a longer term cost.

[Bertram Henze]

...who choose the non-standard are often (not always) inhibited in the future by that decision

Both can be true as in my case:
- fretting hand: often, my ring and pinky stick in the air, exactly what most say slows you down because your finger is not there when it's needed. But my fretting hand has never had speed issues (apart from being too fast for other players, sometimes), so I never changed that.
- picking hand: that's where my speed and volume issues were, and after a long journey through many pick hold variations I more or less arrived at what CT recommends in the video discussed in the other thread. But even then it's not a painful process of unlearning and relearning - instead, things seem to fall into place by themselves. The pain comes in only when you look back and ask yourself why you didn't do it that way in the first place.

[Astro]

I'm like you Bertram. My dominant pick hand is my rate limiting step. And whats worse, I hate practicing what is recommended for that. And whats even worse I have poor strum rhythm to begin with and get upside down a lot when I sing along.

As for the fretting hand, I am working on keeping all my fretting fingers closer to the fretboard and it does help to keep fingers from creeping up the fretboard (toward headstock) so that I dont have to move my hand position that fraction back (toward bridge) when its time to engage the index and pinky.

Rieshman on the other hand retracts his index/pinky all the way up and out of the way off the board BUT his hand position is always in perfect place anyway so when he needs them they just strike down like a piano key and he doesnt have to move his hand. Also, despite his Monroe strap, he somehow does not need to support the headstock with his left hand. Its balanced for him.

I also have to work on not fixating my fret hand at the thumb and allow it to flow up and down the neck more. My nature is to anchor it (lazy hand) and try to over stretch the fingers.

For my strumming hand I have to work on not fixating my forearm at the armrest and letting it flow. I have conquered not fixating the strumming pinky on the soundboard (which is how I started out) and that has helped.

I think the anatomical differences of players has not fully been realized in regards to individualized instructions for technique. My hands are built more like Theile's so I'm following his suggestions.

When you think about it, look at the differences in hand anatomy between the likes of Adam Steffy or say Mike Marshall (huge baseball mitts) compared to Sierra Hull (petite). How would anyone expect them to play the instrument the same way and why should they?

Of course some things and some general rules would be the same but the specific physical way of reaching those goals may look very different. And Of course all beginners should learn "the norm" and not just what feels best in the beginning. Only later will they learn to tweak to their variances.

As with anything, you have to know what the "rules to success" are before you can start to successfully break them. And thats usually when you can really start pushing your limits and realizing your full potential.

[JeffD]

Breaking, or modifying, a "standard" is an intermediate to advanced decision, in my opinion. It is a decision that is best made when one is capable of deciding that "this" works better for ME than "that", under "these" conditions..

Yes. That is really important. What one might advise a beginner is different than an intermediate or advanced player. With some experience, one is in a better position to distinguish between necessary and unnecessary discomfort.

If you have some experience, my advice to you is do what ever you feel comfortable with and I don't care a bit. And I don't care why you do what you do, from physical anomaly to can't be bothered to learn it differently - I don't care.

But with an earnest beginner asking a serious question, one needs to be helpful.

Also one is better able to decide where one would like music to be in life. The intelligently decided sober minded informed goals will determine in large part how much of a stickler for standard techniques one needs to be.

[Vincent Capostagno]

If "whatever works for you" is the correct answer, why would you need a teacher?
If "whatever works for you" is the teacher's recommendation, why would you pay him?

[Astro]

If "whatever works for you" is the correct answer, why would you need a teacher?
If "whatever works for you" is the teacher's recommendation, why would you pay him?

Because it is not evident what works for you when you are first starting out.

Often what you think works for you in the beginning will later work against you.

Classic case of you don't know ...what you don't know.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Vincent - Many folk employ a teacher for other reasons than technique.Also,there are many folk to whom a musical instrument is totally new,& as such, have no idea whatsoever as to what constitutes good /bad technique. Their teacher may recommend doing this,that or the other during tuition,but, as i mentioned in my last post,some of those pupils might simply not be able to do exactly what the teacher recommends.Thus,some time or other,they're going to try to do 'what works for them' & maybe ignore much of their taught technique. From Astro - "Because it is not evident what works for you when you are first starting out." Exactly !.When first starting out,you've done nothing that would hint at what's to come regarding whether a 'taught or self-taught' technique will work for you or not.
I suppose that for many of us,who,like myself, have played other instruments,we already have a left hand that will do pretty much what we want (mostly !) & who,also like myself,have (had) great difficulty in keeping a pick on the same side of the room as me. Also,picking technique on mandolin isn't the same as picking technique on a guitar,although there will be some 'cross-over' bits.So for guitarists,there maybe some things to un-learn when coming to mandolin,& a teacher could be a big help in doing that & pointing out the correct way to do it.
Playing banjo,i was already used to playing 'off-beat' rhythm with my right hand. This easily translated to 'chopping'' off-beat chords on the mandolin.
It all boils down to whether you can play with an orthodox 'taught / do as i do 'cos that's the right way technique'' or whether your own learned by trial & error technique works best,
Ivan

[James Rankine]

Rieshman on the other hand retracts his index/pinky all the way up and out of the way off the board

Christmas quiz:

Why can John Reischman retract his index and pinky fingers way off the fretboard without any detrimental effect on his playing? Why would he not be able to do this with his middle and ring fingers?
Picture clue: Try separating the tips of the opposing fingers, each finger in turn, with your hands in these two positions.