Bass lines and fill runs in bluegrass backup

[SincereCorgi]

I've been working on my rhythm guitar lately, and I have a respectful question for the bluegrass police: how do the rhythm players keep from stepping all over each other's bass lines?

If there's a bass player, does the bass player just automatically get to steer all the bass lines, and the guitarist sticks to boom-chick rhythm? I know in a band you could work something out, but what is the most common?

[OldSausage]

Basically you listen to what everyone else is doing, and if they leave some space then you can fill. Of course, sometimes they just won't ever leave any space, in which case you have to master the art of the fill and glare.

[Timbofood]

My guitar player uses his "Lester Flatt G-run" at EVERY opportunity, now if I am somewhere without him, I really miss it.
It does, occasionally "step on" someone but, it's something which comes with time and practice. Different jams will support different licks. Don't overthink it, play and learn, enjoy and experiment.
" Fill and Glare" I like that, Sausage! I have caught myself doing just that.

[Cheryl Watson]

That is part of the details of the arrangement of a song. Band members need to work out who is going to do bass runs and fills or else there is a lot of stepping on each other. When my bluegrass band was together, a few of us were willing to work out the details, while the others were not (they were more jam band/whatever happens kind of players) and it caused a lot of confusion and frankly, disagreements.

If you listen to the best bluegrass band's recordings and live performances, you can micro focus on how the guitarist and bassist work together. Alison Krauss & Union Station do a great job of this. Another is the Del McCoury Band. There are many others, of course.

Basically, if a guitarist and the bassist are both doing a bass run together, it has to "work" and cannot clash, so you have to set it in stone. Sometimes the bass will have a really cool moving bass line and the guitarist just punches out the rhythm without overplaying. You have to find that ebb and tide, that interplay. Also, G-runs can get very predictable and cliche, so it is best for the guitarist to learn several variations and use them sparingly. When I am playing guitar in a band, I tend to use a lot more of the subtle, more simple, G-runs that just add flavoring.

[Timbofood]

Cheryl, you bring up a good point. A jam is one thing, rehearsal or, performance as a band is something entirely different.
Picking in the garage mahal is all fine and good but, public performance should have at least a modicum of rehearsed arrangement. That's kind of what jamming and rehearsal is all about.
Jamming is "rehearsal unbound" and allows freedom to fall short of what we expect from ourselves. Rehearsal is finding out how the "band" makes that work in more structured arrangements.

[allenhopkins]

Bluegrass bass fiddle players do runs? Wow! Gonna haveta practice a bit for the next time I sit in on bass (August 2015, probably).

[Mandoplumb]

I don't understand the concept of " steping on" another player, well really I do, I just don't agree that it's bad. If you listen to classical music there is so much going on, the violin are doing one things the horns another,the drums something else. But according to the bluegrass police if the banjo is backing the singer then all the mandolin can do is pop chords, if the mandolin is taking the break the banjo must vamp. Why? If no one overplays all the time what does it matter if 2 things are going on at the same time? As the Food Lion says just my 2 cents worth.

[OldSausage]

I don't understand the concept of " steping on" another player, well really I do, I just don't agree that it's bad. If you listen to classical music there is so much going on, the violin are doing one things the horns another,the drums something else. But according to the bluegrass police if the banjo is backing the singer then all the mandolin can do is pop chords, if the mandolin is taking the break the banjo must vamp. Why? If no one overplays all the time what does it matter if 2 things are going on at the same time? As the Food Lion says just my 2 cents worth.

Can I see your picker's license and registration, please?

[tree]

Listen to Peter Rowan's bass runs on guitar (especially on Old & In The Way) - the guy has hundreds of 'em in his head. Also listen to Tony Rice's rhythm playing. He never seems to get in the way, yet he is all over the place. And fantastic.

I honestly can't say that I've ever processed a thought about bass and rhythm guitar conflicting, at least not in the moment . . . maybe that is just ignorance on my part, or maybe when I hear poor musicianship I don't parse it down to conflict between bass and guitar. Can someone post an example?

[Beanzy]

I just saw this one of Sim Daley tunes played with the Tina Adair Band and it's an object lesson in how to be a supportive part of the fast driving machine. Every player has it locked in and knows how to make it work as a whole. Dropping out to make space for the action, knowing full well the impact on their return will be way greater than if they'd just stayed in or kept the volume up. In a way everyone is working to allow the bass player to work with the soloist doing their break while the rest all move aound that and do or don't do whatever it takes to make the bassist and break player sound as awesome as possible.
Hope he brings some of that magic back here when he comes back to Cornwall.

[Rex Hart]

After playing music professionally and semi-professionally for nearly 40 years, I have found it all boils down to this. There are two types of musicians, some who do whatever they can to make the band stand out, and some do whatever it takes to make themselves stand out, and I can tell you from experience, you can't change 'em.

I remember an instance where a band I was in at the time had painstakingly worked out a song with individual parts in rehearsal, and when it came time to perform the song in public, the banjo player did his own thing which caused the song to fall apart. When I confronted him after the performance as to why he didn't do the song like we rehearsed, he stated that "he had the privilege to play whatever he wants to". We parted ways soon after.

[farmerjones]

Ballads, I like a pick-strum style guitar. Breakdowns, I like a sock rhythm guitar. I like a boom-chuck bass, instead of walking, either way. Don't over-slap that doghouse. I'm usually not the boss, but this is what I'd prefer to play along with. I'd presume the pick-strum guitar is playing the same note as the bass on his/her pick, prior to the chord strum.

[Willie Poole]

I was part of a band years ago where the bass player and the guitar player were making the same runs at the same time, I commented to them about it a suggested that the bass do the run backwards from the way the guitar was doing it and that seemed to sound better but it all comes down to working it out at practice and talking to each other and trying different things and then trying to agree on which sounds the best...The hard part is agreeing on things....I am mostly talking about the runs from one chord to another not the "G" run that Jimmy Martin and Lester all seemed to use at the end of a song or a verse...I think also that guitar runs are really all a band needs, then the bass can just play the beat....

Willie

[re simmers]

There was an interview with Mark Shatz in BU, BN or Frets many years ago. There was an excellent discussion about this. If my memory is OK I think Shatz said Rice was perfect to play with because he allowed the bass the do all the runs. Rice just put the runs in at the end of his own breaks. I've never checked to see if that's true.
I'll try to find the interview.

Bob

[Mandoplumb]

If you want yo hear a different sound in a bluegrass bass listen to Stanleys early stuff with Geroge Shuffler on bass. I at first thought he was copying Rock electric basses then it dawned on me he was first.

[JimKo]

Two things to consider when deciding what to play. First, and most important, try and listen to what the others are playing. If I am playing bass and the guitar player is playing a bunch of runs I will back off and play minimal bass patterns. This is especially true if they are using a lot of syncopation. If the guitar is just boom - chucking that opens up more possibilities. Every space doesn't have to be filled all the time. Really, it doesn't. Secondly, it is good to remember the situation you are playing in. If you are playing a dance your job is to keep time not impress everyone with hot licks or runs. If the timing isn't tight nothing is right.

[Rex Hart]

In most cases LESS IS MORE!

[OldSausage]

In most cases LESS IS MORE!

Especially in the use of typographic devices for emphasis.

[Rex Hart]

Especially in the use of typographic devices for emphasis.

You got me!

[lflngpicker]

In my experience, the key to playing together as a band is to determine the instrument that is providing the primary chord structure and arrangement. Generally, that would be the guitar or piano, but that is a generalization. From there, the bass player usually plays his/her progressions within the chord changes, using the root, third or fifth to remain with the harmony of the arrangement. The guitarist and bassist can work out measures within the song to feature each other, and when that occurs, each would back off to allow that instrumental moment for each to stand out. Bass players are great at following the chord structure and being sure to stay within the harmony of the changes. This is predicated on the guitarist or pianist having the ability to consistently perform an arrangement that has solid progressions with good timing. This works for me and those I have played with, but I am sure others would have their own approaches that might work well for them.