Gibson Mandolin Family Instruments

[sgarrity]

Name me one professional mandola player. Not a mandolin player that occasionally uses a mandola. But a professional musician that makes their living primarily from the mandola. Anybody???

[foldedpath]

Name me one professional mandola player. Not a mandolin player that occasionally uses a mandola. But a professional musician that makes their living primarily from the mandola. Anybody???

Brian McDonagh - Dervish.

[Ken Waltham]

Say what?!

Weber, Kimble, Eastman and others do a fine business selling brand-new mandolas. They still serve a very relevant 'need' by players. They are obviously not as popular as they once were, or as the mandolin is now, but to say there is "no need" for them is, quite frankly, rubbish.

You may take my statement a little too literally. Gibson could not consider making one, vs a one man shop.
But, look in the classifieds and see all the fine mandolas that do not sell. Kimbles, Gilchrists, etc. Fact is, they don't sell. Look at all the Loar signed H5's for sale right now. They don't sell. Maybe a really cheap Pac Rim model would, for the curious.
Hey, I love mandolas, just saying that in today's world, there is not really much call for them. Too bad, I say, but it's reality.

[allenhopkins]

...There is really no need for a mando cello or even really a mandola now…

Jeez, someone shoulda told me before I bought the six I have!

Gibson has fooled around with some "one-of" mando instruments, sometimes labeled (a bit deceptively) as reissues; they apparently issued an oval-hole F-4 in 2010, if Scott T's thread from that year is accurate. However, unlike the original F-4's, it had a longer neck and a radiused fretboard.

What's interesting, is that Gibson isn't even including other mandolin-family instruments in their import lines, like Epiphone and Flatiron -- although you can get Epiphone A-models. Guess they concede the field to the US and Asian makers who are willing to build instruments for which there is no need...

[Tobin]

You may take my statement a little too literally. Gibson could not consider making one, vs a one man shop.
But, look in the classifieds and see all the fine mandolas that do not sell. Kimbles, Gilchrists, etc. Fact is, they don't sell. Look at all the Loar signed H5's for sale right now. They don't sell. Maybe a really cheap Pac Rim model would, for the curious.
Hey, I love mandolas, just saying that in today's world, there is not really much call for them. Too bad, I say, but it's reality.

OK, maybe I did take your statement a little too literally. I'm guessing you did that for effect.

I'll disagree on the idea that "they don't sell". People buy and sell mandolas all the time, and the fact that they show up in the classifieds (as well as on all the websites for mando-family instruments) means that they do move. Most people don't pay attention because they aren't interested in mandolas. And of course, they don't move at the same volume as mandolins. But since I got into the mandola game a while back, I've been paying close attention. And it's a bigger market than I thought it was before I started looking.

The Loar-era H5s, in my opinion, are ridiculously over-priced. I would not be surprised if they don't sell. The signature on the label is being hyped out of context. I'm sure they're great instruments, but it's absurd to try to transfer Loar's fame with the F5 design over to the H5.

But it's a fact that original H4s are popular enough to command a significant price. They fetch upwards of $11K in original, excellent condition. And let's face it: there's nothing magical about a mandola that makes it any harder to produce than an F-style mandolin. It's just slightly upscaled. The labor cost would be about the same, and the material price would be insignificantly more. I have no doubt that Gibson could start producing new H4 or H5 mandolas that would be profitable inside of the $11K mark that vintage ones go for. Heck, they could sell at least a hundred of them (wild guess) right off the bat, just to curious collectors. I don't know what their target is in terms of how many they would need to sell in order to make it worth the tooling. But I'd bet it could be done profitably if they really wanted to. There are enough mandola enthusiasts and collectors out here to make it a real market. Otherwise, nobody else would be making them.

[sgarrity]

Brian McDonagh - Dervish.

And you can easily argue that what he plays really isn't a mandola, especially in the American sense of the word.
Peter Rowan has recorded with one. Mike Compton makes great use of a Duff H5 with the bass strings strung in octaves. Grisman has of course used them. Marla Fibish uses an old Gibson H1 I believe. Forrest O'Connor started out singing with a mandola but has moved to mandolin.

They're a niche instrument. Gilchrist called them a compromise instrument. I was surprised to see Collings come out with one. Glad they did. It's a nice affordable option. A really nice Gibson H2 just sold on eBay for $2,650. If somebody wants a mandola there are plenty of available options.

I'll add that Gibson could probably sell some mandolas if they made them. They've made limited numbers in the past. How many would they need to sell to make it feasible? Any number is pure conjecture on our part. And then we have the business practices of the current corporation.....good luck figuring that out! ;-)

[Ken Waltham]

Just for the record, I am having a mandola made for me by a well known, and this time, reputable builder. It will be a tenor lute conversion. So, it will still have the vintage Gibson vibe I love. H4's are very interesting, but, I have owned 2 or 3, and they are a little flabby. There are 2 or 3 now for sale, that don't move. Mostly they go to the F4 guys who are mandola curious. They make a nice set.
H5 mandolas signed by Loar really do carry the weight of his signature, just as the L5's do. I have long coveted one, but have resisted the temptation. My reasoning is: I don't want that much money in an instrument that is not very saleable. It's always nice to have a way out, if you know what I mean. It's really only the F5 guys who want them, same as the F4 guys with the H4.
No one goes out just to buy an H5, unless they already own an F5.
My whole point here is that the mandola belongs in a setting with one or two mandolins, perhaps an L5, and a bass of some sort.
I would love to play in a setting like that, but, fact is, we just don't anymore. Not to any degree. That style went out right around the time Lloyd Loar created the best ones ever made.
I would LOVE one of those rare H5's that were made in the Steve Carlson era, I believe. I would be all over that.
Ken

[woodwizard]

Name me one professional mandola player. Not a mandolin player that occasionally uses a mandola. But a professional musician that makes their living primarily from the mandola. Anybody???

Mike Marshall along with his Loar of course and maybe Tim O'neal? ... maybe not? but a good guess. Nope none but I've always wanted one .... they are tools though for the professional so there is a need IMHO

[JeffD]

Say what?!

Weber, Kimble, Eastman and others do a fine business selling brand-new mandolas. They still serve a very relevant 'need' by players. They are obviously not as popular as they once were, or as the mandolin is now, but to say there is "no need" for them is, quite frankly, rubbish.

Weber, Kimble, Eastman and others do a fine business selling mandolins. They also make mandolas and mandocellos. Many mandolin makers also make guitars.

No need for the mandocello or the mandola because the music that created that need, mandolin quartet music and mandolin orchestra music, is no longer very popular. No longer popular. At all. Mandolins have the advantage of being needed by bluegrass.

"Not as popular as the mandolin is now." Whew. Should say, not EVEN as popular as the mandolin is now, which is hardly at all. A niche instrument within a minority of a sub-culture.

I would guess that all the mandocello and mandola needs of the US could be supplied by 5000 instruments. OK maybe 10,000? I can't conceive its much higher - what 50,000 instruments? Now way. And these are one time sales. CMSA lists some 62 mandolin orchestras and groups - a list that includes Canada. Multiply by what you want, and add in non-classical mandola and mando-cello "needs" and still, I can't make it 50,000.

Guitars in the US sell at approximately between 1.5 and 2.5 million guitars, per year, every year, year after year. Next year, another 2 million are sold. Year after that another 2 million.

That is what a fine business looks like.

[Ken Waltham]

Weber, Kimble, Eastman and others do a fine business selling mandolins. They also make mandolas and mandocellos. Many mandolin makers also make guitars.

No need for the mandocello or the mandola because the music that created that need, mandolin quartet music and mandolin orchestra music, is no longer very popular. No longer popular. At all. Mandolins have the advantage of being needed by bluegrass.

"Not as popular as the mandolin is now." Whew. Should say, not EVEN as popular as the mandolin is now, which is hardly at all. A niche instrument within a minority of a sub-culture.

I would guess that all the mandocello and mandola needs of the US could be supplied by 5000 instruments. OK maybe 10,000? I can't conceive its much higher - what 50,000 instruments? Now way. And these are one time sales. CMSA lists some 62 mandolin orchestras and groups - a list that includes Canada. Multiply by what you want, and add in non-classical mandola and mando-cello "needs" and still, I can't make it 50,000.

Guitars in the US sell at approximately between 1.5 and 2.5 million guitars, per year, every year, year after year. Next year, another 2 million are sold. Year after that another 2 million.

That is what a fine business looks like.

My point exactly. We love them, but, only because we're "plugged in" to the culture. I think 500 mandolas would satisfy the national need....maybe less. I am not trying to be difficult, we just need to realize that we are indeed a very small, niche market.
I would also hazard a guess that none of the well known builders make a "fine" living. I bet it's rough being a self employed mandolin builder. Lot of labour and time for the product to get out the door. Unless you're running the factory in China...

[journeybear]

Make that 499. I've already got one, so I'm not in the market.

[Tobin]

I think 500 mandolas would satisfy the national need....

Even if the number were that small (I think it's more than that), I think that considering the volume of mandolins Gibson is producing these days, that would be quite a lot of backlog for them. It would be years worth of production work for them. And if they were to call it a limited production run of retro-style specialty/custom instruments, they could price it at a comfortable profit margin.

[Ken Waltham]

Even if the number were that small (I think it's more than that), I think that considering the volume of mandolins Gibson is producing these days, that would be quite a lot of backlog for them. It would be years worth of production work for them. And if they were to call it a limited production run of retro-style specialty/custom instruments, they could price it at a comfortable profit margin.

That would truly be marvelous. I wish they could spend about 10 years recreating their Glory Days, say from 1920 or so. And actually do it right.

Then, if they could go to about 1924, produce the whole catalog, and actually do it right!! Wow, what a mouth watering idea that is....

[J.Albert]

catmandu2 asked above:
[[ Aren't Gibson still doing banjos? ]]

Gibson ended banjo production around the end of 2009, actually before "the flood" happened...

[Tom Coletti]

catmandu2 asked above:
[[ Aren't Gibson still doing banjos? ]]

Gibson ended banjo production around the end of 2009, actually before "the flood" happened...

Well it seems like a lot of Mastertone-style fivers are offered by Sullivan, Yates, Huber, etc. which many prefer, plus Deering, Nechville, Ome, and other builders are offering lots of tonal and visual variety as well as openback and even 4-string banjos in some cases.

--Tom

[JeffD]

Even if the number were that small (I think it's more than that), I think that considering the volume of mandolins Gibson is producing these days, that would be quite a lot of backlog for them. It would be years worth of production work for them. And if they were to call it a limited production run of retro-style specialty/custom instruments, they could price it at a comfortable profit margin.

They could make hundreds of dollars.