Left hand position

[adauria]

Hi folks,

I'm a guitar player with limited mandolin experience. I recently upgraded to an Eastman MD515 and want to start learning how to play mandolin like a real mandolin player (not some guitar knucklehead ).

I bought and am working through the Horne/Fugate Mandolin Complete book and really like it (I'm just about done with the beginner section). One thing still has me a bit perplexed though, and maybe you folks can help.

With the guitar, my left (fretting) hand really has 2 main positions/postures, and I switch between them easily. I mean the "classical" position with the thumb on the back of the center of the neck, providing leverage for chords and other fingerings; and the thumb-on-the-side position I use for more lead lines and even fingering notes on the low E string with the left thumb ("lazy" position, as I think of it).

On the mandolin, however, the neck is obviously much slimmer. If I go back and forth between classical and thumb-on-the-side position, it really slows me down, though I feel like I need to do this sometimes for going between some chord shapes, or chords and lead lines. The shift seems to be much more difficult than on the guitar, like I'm losing my grip on the neck as I adjust.

I am thinking that I'm approaching the mandolin incorrectly from a left hand perspective. Do any of you all have tips on left hand position, in particular for shifting between chords and leads? Is that classical guitar position even useful on the Mandolin? It feels natural for some barre chord shapes, but maybe I'm looking at this wrong, i.e. like a guitar player

Thanks!

-Andrew

[billhay4]

Try Pete Martin's videos for some solid advice on this and other mandolin basics.
Bill

[bayAreaDude]

For me, when I do chords it's whatever I need to do to make the chord. There are just too many gymnastics involved to try to keep your thumb in any kind of static position. I do mainly 3 finger chords though and a broad range of them(jazz) - another approach may work better for a smaller set of chords. For everything else, I keep my thumb just barely protruding past the fretboard so I still have some leverage, but not hanging over so far that it hinders moving up and down the beck into different positions easily.

[ralph johansson]

My own approach to left hand technique is exactly the same on guitar and mandolin. No tension, don't support the neck with your fretting hand. Secure the instrument in place, using a strap, points, or whatever, and your right forearm (the portion next to the elbow),
let your left hand hang loosely to your side, then bring it to the neck of the instrument. Movement over the fretboard is entirely dictated by the fretting fingers, you don't force your thumb anywhere, it just follows your left hand motion, and lands where it has to land. On the mandolin the thumb will most of the time land on the side of the neck with part of the outer joint above the fretboard - lower than most people, because I have very little control over it, one tendon missing. If I fret a barre chord, e.g., a-e-c#-a, the thumb will land a little lower, but certainly not in the center of the back of the neck. If I travel along the fretboard the thumb will trail behind along the side of the neck.

[Chris Rizos]

I am afraid the classical guitar approach is really not suitable for the mandolin. I am a classical guitar player as well and I know what you mean.
Here are some points to remember
- Position first the thumb of the left hand by placing the pad of the thumb on the neck where it’s fastened to the fingerboard
- The wrist must be straight and relaxed
- The entire arm, from the neck all the way down to the fingertips must be relaxed
- The only points of contact with the mandolin neck must be the pad of the thumb and the side of the first finger, somewhere between first and second joints
- The fingers must not be parallel to the frets. The mandolin frets are small, so it is not like the guitar where the fingers are parallel to the frets. It is played more like a violin (see a video of a violinist and you will see what I mean)
- Make sure you have a space between the left palm and the back of the mandolin neck. This will help you have a relaxed left hand.
- The fingers (except the thumb) must be curled to avoid muting other strings.

I had created a l(free) lesson in the past with some helpful info about all that. Check it at my mandolin blog here
Hope it helps!

[David L]

"The fingers (except the thumb) must be curled to avoid muting other strings."
If you are playing single note melodic lines, muting other strings can be a good thing. Likewise, muting the fourth course when playing three note chords can be good.

[adauria]

Great info folks - thank you!

Chris - the blog is helpful. However, I do see that it appears the model has her thumb on the back of the center neck in a few of the photos (e.g. the first and second photos of the model).

So really the crux of it is this - when you are playing barre type chords, say the A major in the 2nd position (2,2,4,5), where is your left thumb? Mine wants to go to the middle of the back of the neck, which makes moving back into single note line position, i.e. thumb on the side, rather clumsy.

If anyone has a photo of that, I'd love to see it! If it looks like my thumb, then how do you transition well between that position and single note thumb-on-the-side?

Thanks!

-Andrew

[adauria]

WAIT - just saw the note that her hand is wrong in those first 2 photos, so ignore that point.

But still curious about where left hand thumb goes for barre chords.

Thanks!

[ralph johansson]

Great info folks - thank you!

Chris - the blog is helpful. However, I do see that it appears the model has her thumb on the back of the center neck in a few of the photos (e.g. the first and second photos of the model).

So really the crux of it is this - when you are playing barre type chords, say the A major in the 2nd position (2,2,4,5), where is your left thumb? Mine wants to go to the middle of the back of the neck, which makes moving back into single note line position, i.e. thumb on the side, rather clumsy.

If anyone has a photo of that, I'd love to see it! If it looks like my thumb, then how do you transition well between that position and single note thumb-on-the-side?

Thanks!

-Andrew

No two hands are alike and mine is a bit odd with that immobile thumg - it will land on the side of the neck in almost all cases, jus a little lower when barreing. Are you really playing with a straight wrist?

[des]

The 2245 A chord is not so difficult . When the barre covers adjacent strings it is easily done with the tip of the finger in violin type hand position.

A barre that spans 3 courses - such as 4353 G7 - requires something like a guitar grip. The whole hand swivels round but the thumb does not need to go into classical guitar position - it's nothing like as difficult as moving between the four string G & D chop chords.

You were looking for a photo - So quick iphone photos : A7 G7

The thumb hardly need to move at all - it's the axis on which the hand pivots. Photo quality is poor here but this shows how the G7 chord looks with the thumb in place

[adauria]

Thanks Des. In that second photo, is your thumb still on the side?

Ralph - I'll need to check and see if my wrist is straight. Maybe I'll post some photos.

I am experimenting with thumb position a bit on barre chords and am find it's possible (though feels weird) to do them with the thumb on the side rather than on the back of the middle of neck. Maybe I just need to break my guitar playing habits on this tiny neck.

-Andrew

[des]

Andrew,

Well spotted ! In the second photo the thumb slipped down - trying to get the camera phone in the right position and take the photo one-handed was a challenge. I was concentrating on showing how the fingers have to swivel into the guitar position and ended up twisting the mando around to show it to the camera. The thumb is closer to the guitar position here - but nowhere near the classical guitar position.

The last photo shows the appropriate thumb position but doesn't show the fingers well.

May I complicate things further by mentioning third finger barres -

This is 5455 - D7 (coincidently?) very like D9 on a guitar and a very handy movable shape. The first and second fingers are in violin shape and the third in guitar shape. The thumb stays in violin position.

[JonZ]

Try Pete Martin's videos for some solid advice on this and other mandolin basics.
Bill

I love Pete's stuff, but the video about holding the mandolin, and left hand position, always feels wrong to me. I know it is based on advice from a doctor, but I think we evolved to work with our fingers about a foot from our nose at our center line, so tilting the neck up and out is closer to "natural".

Also, strap attached to scroll causes neck dive. (This will make me popular.)

That's my pseudo-scientific take on it.

[JeffD]

Classic video:

See at 1:36

[adauria]

Great video Jeff!! Thank you - he says it all. Don't do what the classical guitar guys do (which is how I do it on the guitar quite often).

Great pic, Des. Thanks again. I think I am getting it.

Thanks all. Long story short is that I've been trying to do the thumb on the side (not the back of the neck) thing even for barre chords and such, and I think I am getting to where I can do it, exerting enough pressure the right way, and play it cleanly. I just need to learn to fight every instinct I have to move that thumb to the back of the neck. It certainly makes the transition from notes to chords and vice-versa might faster and easier if I play it like a mandolin.

Jon - Yeah, I agree that the strap through the scroll makes the darn thing seem top heavy. Not sure if I'm going to change that or not. I am trying to use my right forearm to keep it from tipping without bear hugging the body.

-Andrew