Until I learn More Theory...What Chords Should I Practice?

[Nalapombu]

Hey all,

I am coming back to Bluegrass mandolin after close to 10 years away. I was never a good player to start with, but now that I am older I'd like to stay with it and see what comes of it. The only chords I knew back then were the 2 finger chords and the 4 finger G chord.

Several have suggested that I learn how chords are constructed, transposed, the I,IV,V chords in each key and so on. No doubt that is very important to know, but for me, who has never been taught or exposed to that stuff, it's very difficult. I am reading and trying to learn the basics of Music Theory, but it is very slow going especially when I have no teacher. I am utilizing several online resources.

In the meantime, can you all tell me what Chords I can practice and learn for Bluegrass? I'd like to practice something as I am not doing anything while I am trying to learn the other stuff, the Theory behind it all.

If you all wouldn't mind telling me what chords I should be learning for Bluegrass I would be very appreciative.
I'm also going to try and learn a couple novice songs like Old Joe Clark with the words and chords where I can sing along with it.

Thank you for your time and any help you can give me.

Nalajr

[JeffD]

At the least the chords E, A, D, G, C, F

That way you would have in the key of A

I=A IV=D V=E

In the key of D

I=D IV=G V=A

In the key of G

I=G IV=C V=D

In the key of C

I=C IV=F V=G

[Phil Goodson]

What Jeff said.

Practice the 7523 G shape and the 523x C shape. Then you can move them up & down the FB for most other chords.

I know lots of players who know little more than this and do pretty well.

Later, you can add lots more shapes.

[dwc]

You really need the 4 finger (3257) G shape (that you already know) and the 3 finger (x325) C shape. You can move the G shape up 2 frets for your A chord, and up 2 more for your B chord. You can move the C shape up 2 frets for a D chord and up 2 more for an E chord. If you move it up 1 more fret, you have an F chord. This gives you all your natural majors. You can go pretty far in bluegrass just sliding these shapes up and down the fretboard.

I would also add in an Am and an Em. Some people may think it is cheating, but I use xx22 when I need an Am and x22x when I need an Em. Without getting into too much theory, these are technically not chords (they are double stops, also called power chords). A normal chord triad has the 1,3, and 5 notes (a C Chord is CEG, a G chord is GBD, etc). With my "cheater" chords, you are only playing the 1 and the 5 notes ( the A double stop is A and E, the E double stop is E and B), you are leaving out the middle note, the 3, but that really isn't a problem since the guitar has the full chord covered.

[UsuallyPickin]

Learn the common chords in the common keys as JD pointed out.Phil is correct about the importance of those two forms. And the relative minor either as a full three note chord or as a simplified double stop omitting the flatted third needs to be covered. The only things I'll add is that if you are a singer and have a key you prefer then work on that key too. I IV V VIm covers most chords in folk type songs. Practice them in the groups that work together, keys, and you will begin to "hear" the changes in a song as they are coming around.... Luck.... R/

[AlanN]

Please see Phil's post3# for proper notating of chords, we typically go from low strings to high when putting the shapes on paper.

[dwc]

Please see Phil's post3# for proper notating of chords, we typically go from low strings to high when putting the shapes on paper.

Thank you. I did not know that. I am glad someone settled on a convention.

[Ky Slim]

I think that Jeff did a nice job of laying out the chords and Phil with the shapes. Adding the Am (2235) and Em (0220) or this shape for Em (457x) as dwc suggested would be great.

I'd like to practice something as I am not doing anything while I am trying to learn the other stuff, the Theory behind it all.
I'm also going to try and learn a couple novice songs like Old Joe Clark with the words and chords where I can sing along with it.

Nobody knew how to speak or form sentences before they started speaking and forming sentences. Definitely learn songs and tunes as you make the effort to learn the basics of Theory. Just playing is the best thing you can do.

[Mandoplumb]

In bluegrass your role as a mandolin player is the "drums" the rhythm so the theory of chord building is not critical at first. Learn the few chord shapes and develop your rhythm as you learn theory to improvise breaks. The more chord shapes you know the more fun rhythm is but your timing must be dead on.

[farmerjones]

At the least the chords E, A, D, G, C, F

That way you would have in the key of A

I=A IV=D V=E

In the key of D

I=D IV=G V=A

In the key of G

I=G IV=C V=D

In the key of C

I=C IV=F V=G

Between, two chord tunes/songs, and three chord tunes/songs, this covers several hundred Bluegrass favorites.

May I add again, it's one thing to chop along with a chord, the music is in the timely transition (moving) from one chord shape to another without dropping a beat.

Follow the guitar players left hand. It's easy to see what a D chord looks like. Slightly more difficult to see the difference between a G and a C. (with my old eyes)
The fact that it isn't easy to see, makes one use their ears! That's what we're really striving for anyway, is a better ear.

[Nalapombu]

Thank you all for your suggestions and your willingness to help me.

Am I correct in that it is I,IV and V in the chords for each key?

Something I have never understood and tried to ask my old teacher about it and he never did explain it to me where I could get it and that is when someone says this song is in whatever key and that you need to change it to another key. Please correct me if I am wrong here, but lets for the sake of argument say that a song is in the key of A. Would that mean that you would play the A, D and E chords (A=I, D=IV and E is V) If that is right and say the song you are wanting to play doesn't work well for a singer in that key of A and you need to change it to the key of B. Would that mean that instead of playing the A,D and E chords that you now would play the B, E and F chords (B=I, E=IV and F=V)?

Do I have that right or am I way off?

Thanks all.

Nalajr

[Nalapombu]

One other thing that I don't understand too....How come there aren't any majors and minors when you count I,IV and V?


Also when you all told me to over up 2 frets to move to a higher chord and 2 more still yet another higher chord, is that where the formula 2,2,1 2,2,2,1 comes into play?

Nalajr

[JeffD]

Well you are close. The I, IV and V refer to chords of the first fourth and fifth notes of the scale the of the key. So you have the basic idea. The key of B has five sharps so the V chord is an F# chord, but yea you get the idea.

The I, IV and V are all major chords. I was trying to keep it simple.

Getting into minor chords I would think it would be just easier to forget theory (for the moment) and cheat the chords off the guitar player.

[High Lonesome Valley]

After learning the chords and combos, try forgetting what key your playing in a go for pure muscle memory feel. That's a great goal and if you can attain it, you'll have risen above your fellows.

[JeffD]

One of the joys of old time jams is that generally we stay in one key for an extended period. So say we are doing all D tunes, if I don't want to play melody or if I don't know the melody, I get a good work out on all my D related moves, chords, transition riffs, double stops, etc. Its great. Then maybe later we switch to G, or perhaps not till next week, but in any event soon enough we'll be on G tunes and I get a real good G work out.

There is something nice, from a developmental point of view, of not worrying about what key you are in for a while.

It also stretches me to get and keep more tunes. Especially an A jam. Woof, I need more A tunes.

And for newbies I think it is good - they don't have to ask what key is this in.

From a performance point of view, I think it is a terrible idea. It can get old sounding pretty fast. But who cares about the audience, its a jam, its for us, not them.

[Ky Slim]

Also when you all told me to over up 2 frets to move to a higher chord and 2 more still yet another higher chord, is that where the formula 2,2,1 2,2,2,1 comes into play?

Nalajr

I'm not sure how this was presented to you Nalapombu and I definitely do not want to confuse you anymore but I think the formula 2212221 is a simple descripton of the intervals of a major scale. If you are already comfortable in your understanding or with another explanation please ignore this. Sometimes too many perspectives on a concept like chord theory will only confuse you. There are a lot of ways of saying the same thing.

2,2,1,2,2,2,1 means 2 frets, 2 frets, 1 fret, 2 frets 2 frets 2 frets 1 fret.

Another way of saying this is

WWHWWWH meaning Whole Step, Whole step, Half step, Whole step, Whole step, Whole step, Half step.

(A whole step = 2 frets and a half step = 1 fret)

2212221 or WWHWWWH are the intervals that make a major scale.

So from any note you can go up 2 frets (1 whole step) and have the second degree or the II of that scale. If you go up another 2 frets you will be at the 3rd degree or the III. From there if you increase 1 fret you will be at the fourth of the scaleor the IV.
So far we have gone 221 or WWH. Now up 2 frets to the fifth of the scale or V. UP another 2 frets to the sixth or the VI. Up another 2 to the seveth or VII. And the up 1 fret to the Octave note.

Try playing these frets on any one string 2, 4, 6, 7, 9, 11, 13, 14. That is the it of it.


You asked "how come there aren't any minors in the I, IV and V?"

I guess at this point just memorize this: Major, minor, minor, Major, Major, minor, minor. The chord type for each degree of a major scale or the chord scale. The I , IV and V are the Majors.


Again, please don't let me confuse you. I have may own way of understanding some of these things from my own experiences, teachers, books etc.. Good Luck and Have Fun!!

[Nalapombu]

Hey Slim,

Yeah that is pretty much how I took it in the video I was watching about this kind of stuff. The 2=2 frets and is a whole step, while the 1=1 fret and is a 1/2 step.

That formula also works the same for a chord too, doesn't it? Like if I am playing a G, the BIG 4 finger G and I move up a whole step, 2 frets, I'll be playing an A. Is that right? If so, is the next whole step come out to be a B? What do you get when you go the next one, which is a 1/2 step or 1 fret?

I'm trying....to get this as best I can. I'm going slow and hoping to learn as much as I can on my own without a teacher to help and explain to me on a personal level.

I'd love to find a group of Bluegrass guys and gals that just hung out and played and practiced and wouldn't mind if I just stood around and tried to hang on with the chords to their songs. If I was back in my home, where I was raised, in Huntington, West Virginia, I would be able to find a Bluegrass jam in about 15 minutes. Down here, in Houston, I don't have a clue. Heck, I don't know anyone here. I'd love to find a good teacher that wasn't very expensive and would take on a basket case like me and help.

Until then I'll just learn what I can at my pace and maybe I can get decent at playing chords and moving between them.

Thank you all for your patience and help.

Nalajr
Nalajr

[Jon Hall]

Nalajr

If you call Fuller's Vintage Guitars They can give you the names of some mandolin teachers. Fullers is located on the north 610 Loop.

[jshane]

First, I'd like to offer that music theory (at least at the level that virtually any player needs) is much simpler that it seems-- the major difficulty is that almost no 2 people describe the same thing in the same way using the same terms. Add to that the fact that a huge percentage of people who have SOME knowledge of the subject will continue to speak authoritatively well past the limits of their knowledge, thus further confusing the issue.

If you want to PLAY music, I'd suggest learning some songs, thus learning some chords, learning how songs are constructed out of those chords, and also learning how SIMILAR many songs are, regardless of key. Those similarities are generally the result of basic musical realities, that have been intellectually described-- these descriptions comprising what we term "Music theory". It ain't magic (well, MUSIC is magical, but theory isn't).

So--- I'd suggest getting a good learning tool--- and I think there is a decent consensus that Don Julian's "Mandolin for Dummies" is a good one. Follow it. You will learn songs, chords, and enough theory to get started in a well-grounded way.

Not playing and learning because you are studying theory is like delaying painting landscapes because you are studying the physics of wavelength-expression of radiant energy.

PLAY!!! HAVE FUN!!

my 3 or 4 cents...

[Mandoplumb]

Jsane said what I was trying to say but said it so much better. What he said!!!

[JeffD]

I guess at this point just memorize this: Major, minor, minor, Major, Major, minor, minor.

Well, not to be picky, but the last one is not minor, its diminished. Though I am not sure how important it is to know it, in terms of the present discussion. But for completeness:

If you only use the notes of the scale (Say C in this case), and play a triad chord for each note going up you get:

C-E-G a C major chord (the I chord)
D-F-A a D minor chord
E-G-B an E minor chord
F-A-C an F major chord (the IV chord)
G-B-D a G major chord (the V chord)
A-C-E an A minor chord
B-D-F a B diminished chord

C-E-G a C major chord

[Ky Slim]

Well, not to be picky, but the last one is not minor, its diminished.

It is a minor chord because of the minor third interval (B - D). It is diminished because of the flattened fifth interval (B - F). Minor flatted fifth. Potato potahto

[jshane]

It is a minor chord because of the minor third interval (B - D). It is diminished because of the flattened fifth interval (B - F). Minor flatted fifth. Potato potahto

This is an example of what I was referring to in my post, above.

If we are talking about intervals, then diminished means "lowering in pitch by a half-tone". If we are talking about triads (commonly referred to as chords, but technically a subset of the universe of chords because a chord is a "harmonic set of at least 3 notes heard as if sounded simultaneously") then the term diminished refers to a triad "with a minor 3rd AND a diminished 5th". Since the triad built from the seventh tone of a major scale HAS to have both a minor 3rd and a diminished 5th (unless we change the scale's tones), the triad can really only be referred to as "diminished". You can't really have a "diminished" triad with a major 3rd (Well, you CAN of course, but it would not properly be referred to as a diminished triad).

I hasten to point out that it is blather like I wrote in the paragraph above that made me stop studying Theory and Arranging, and realize that you can talk this stuff to death and even if you are technically correct in your phrasing of the theoretical language, it probably wont contribute much, if anything, to your creation of MUSIC.....

If you really want to wallow in this... let me steer you to a little gem called "The Lydian Chromatic Concept".

[Ky Slim]

If you really want to wallow in this...

I don't. I was just trying to help NalaJr and I agree that it is easy to talk this stuff to death. Play and have fun is great advice!

[jshane]

Play and have fun ...........

Yep- I was fortunate enough to have been able to play with a friend today. It doesn't really get any better...does it?