How long?

[itstooloudMike]

I have a 2005 Eastman MD815 that I've owned for several years, but really haven't played much until recently. I'm a guitar player, who holds hope of someday becoming a real mandolin player. So, I actually don't have a lot of mando experience. I have always liked the sound of my Eastman, but thought it sounded a little "polite" and "chimey", as compared to most of the bluegrass recordings I have heard. I have read that a mandolin's voice will mature over time, and they will "open up". But I really don't know how long that takes. Anyway, recently I have had a surge of inclination to play the mandolin and improve my abilities. So, several weeks ago I put some new strings on, and have been playing daily. Maybe it's my imagination, or my skill is improving, but my 815 "seems" to be sounding louder and throatier, with more of a bluegrass "chop". I am very pleased with what I'm hearing, but also skeptical that it could happen within only a couple of months. Are my ears playing tricks on me, or is it possible that my Eastman really is beginning to open up? Or would this more than likely just be from my playing technique improving? Either way I win, but just curious.

[Tobin]

Well, if you're asking about the "opening up" phenomenon, you'll get lots of different answers. Some will say it's hogwash, some will say it's real. And amongst those who say it's real, you'll get a wide range of opinion on how long it takes. And of course, it will vary from instrument to instrument, player to player. Some instruments just won't do it at all.

Chances are high that the changes you're hearing right now are the result of your technique adapting to the instrument. It takes a good week or two for a set of strings to really settle in as well, so that's part of it as well. You'll know after 3 or 4 string changes whether what you're hearing is the instrument itself or just the strings.

Personally, in my experience, some changes in the instrument will happen in the first few months of regular playing. But the sound really starts to mature after 9-12 months. But it may be all in my head.

[bradlaird]

"some will say it's real"

It's real.

[Ky Slim]

It's real. Your technique will improve the more you play and the tone of your Eastman (or any mando) will improve the more it is played. The recordings that you are hearing probably have mandolins that have been played more than yours and mandolin pickers that have played more than you have at this point.

[Bertram Henze]

Two things are certain:
- new strings sound better than old ones,
- new strings settle in after a few hours and sound better still.

[Joey Anchors]

As others have stated.. It is real. This happened on my upright bass I owned for 12 years and is currently happening in my Gretsch mando.

Also the "sleep" affect is also real. For example my upright would sound great (full, warm tone with quick response) when I was gigging 4-5 nights a week playing four hours a night, but if it sat for a month in the corner in it's case (no playing time) it would have a chocked tone and not sound as full or warm at all.

[bigskygirl]

I think it's real, I have a couple of Koa guitars that changed right before my ears. I also think experience has a lot to do with it as well. My Eastman is sounding better than ever when I play the lower courses but it could just be me getting better......

[jimbob]

I would say your technique is getting better and you are getting better sound and response out of the mandolin. I think they do go to "sleep" if not played a lot, but I think that as you practice and get better at the fundamentals, the mandolin will sound better

[Frank Russell]

This is all pretty subjective, but I've definitely had several mandos that "opened up" over a period. Most memorably, my first "expensive" one, a Weber Gallatin. It was tight and quiet, and I tried everything to get the open, woody tone and volume I'd heard on other Webers. What finally seemed to work was Thomastik strings, which brought out some of the lower end. I traded it to a friend who was a gigging musician, and within a few months it sounded like a different instrument, and not just from in front of it, but when I played it as well. On the other side, I've had a few tight, quiet mandos that never "opened up," including some from highly touted builders. They were what they were, no matter what I tried. Now I think some have the potential to change, and some will always be the way they are, especially if they've been played a lot. YMMV. Frank

[JeffD]

Its an argument that has been going on for as long as I have been here. I have experienced what I would call opening up, but subjective evidence doesn't cut it. Lots and lots of posts of folks who remain unconvinced, or attribute it to better set up or improving control of the pick or development of more discerning ears.

So the jury is out. The only real advice is to never buy a mandolin based on how it promises to sound at some time in the future, always purchase based on what you experience when you play it. If it gets better, well even better. And secondly, of your mandolin opens up, enjoy it.

[Mark Christensen]

This debate is odd to me. I'm not sure why someone wouldn't be able to tell if their Mandolin has opened up or not. It seems like a no brainer. As an example a year ago I acquired a Collings MF-0, it was one of the tightest sounding Mandolins I've owned. I've been playing for years and I've bought and sold many good Mandolins and still have a few. I think I can tell whether a Mandolin I own has changed after a year of hard playing and this Mandolin has opened up tremendously and is completely different then when I bought it. It's not because my technique has improved etc. etc. I think anyone who's played various Mandolins knows this and has experienced it.

[bart mcneil]

There has been a lot of talk over the years on mandolins "opening up" as they age.

The only thing certain is that our hearing changes day by day and over the years. Instrument wood may change in resonance too but I wouldn't bet money on it and it would be impossible to prove anyway. My primary mandos are from the early 1930s. Do they sound better than they did in 1935? I hope so but really have no idea (nor does anyone else).

The one thing you can count on is that the salesperson selling you the instrument will tell you that "When it opens up it will sound GREAT."

Sorry, but it is all hype.

And as you mention strings change their tone daily as they are vigorously plucked. So what is really changing? The wood? The strings? your hearing? The atmospheric pressure? Your competence as a player? The acoustics of the location where played?

[jimbob]

Oh, I think mandolins do or can "open up", but after many years and many mandos and much practice (still a mando hack) , I believe that technique and the ability to get aggressive enough with the pick probably make more difference in the sound coming out of the instrument.

[Mark Christensen]

I don't think it's the age of the Mandolin (as stated in your first sentence Post #12) as much as how often it's been played and to say it's all hype is a ludicrous statement. I doubt that the countless Mandolin players who have said their Mandolin has opened up over time can all be wrong or can't tell the difference between their hearing, strings, competence etc etc. I built my first F5 style Mandolin in 2001 and it's been played a lot, recorded with and sounds completely different than when it was new and you're going to tell me it's the strings? Give me a break. My .02

[David Lewis]

Can they 'close down'. That is, sound great in the shop and then after a month or so, degrade? I ask out of curiosity.

[bobby bill]

I doubt that the countless Mandolin players who have said their Mandolin has opened up over time can all be wrong

Well, if you want to resolve a scientific hypothesis by taking a public opinion poll, that is your prerogative.

I have no problem believing mandolins change with time. Everything does. I also have no problem believing that such change could have an effect on the sound. But it seems like kind of a religious belief to think that all such change moves in one direction (i.e., for the better), which is why I like the "close down" question above. Like religious beliefs, however, I am perfectly happy with everyone having a different perspective about this. Also like religious beliefs (unfortunately) it seems that sometimes people can place quite an emotional stake in their belief.

You will never get to hear your one-year-ago mandolin and your present-time mandolin played (preferably by someone else) concurrently, one after the other. And as others have pointed out, it is virtually impossible to isolate all the other factors that affect tone.

My own experience starting out is that after a year or so, my mandolin really started to develop a nice ringing tone - louder and richer. But I was playing a 1911 Gibson A and it is really hard to imagine that it waited a hundred years to open up. I would like to think that hours of practice had something to do with it.

[Tobin]

Can they 'close down'. That is, sound great in the shop and then after a month or so, degrade? I ask out of curiosity.

Yes. It's often referred to as "going to sleep". Chris Thile is on record as being a believer in this phenomenon when he sold his Dudenbostel and then bought it back. He claimed it sounded asleep, and it took him a while to wake it back up through regular playing to make it sound like itself again.

A mandolin somehow goes through a change when it's played regularly. Some of it is permanent, as when a new instrument is played in (i.e. the initial settling of the components, I reckon). But some of it does seem to be temporary, and will revert to a previous state when left alone for a while. This explains why even a hundred-year-old mandolin will undergo a similar change. I have noticed the same thing on my 1918 F4.

[Mark Christensen]

Well, if you want to resolve a scientific hypothesis by taking a public opinion poll, that is your prerogative.

I have no problem believing mandolins change with time. Everything does. I also have no problem believing that such change could have an effect on the sound. But it seems like kind of a religious belief to think that all such change moves in one direction (i.e., for the better), which is why I like the "close down" question above. Like religious beliefs, however, I am perfectly happy with everyone having a different perspective about this. Also like religious beliefs (unfortunately) it seems that sometimes people can place quite an emotional stake in their belief.

You will never get to hear your one-year-ago mandolin and your present-time mandolin played (preferably by someone else) concurrently, one after the other. And as others have pointed out, it is virtually impossible to isolate all the other factors that affect tone.

My own experience starting out is that after a year or so, my mandolin really started to develop a nice ringing tone - louder and richer. But I was playing a 1911 Gibson A and it is really hard to imagine that it waited a hundred years to open up. I would like to think that hours of practice had something to do with it.

Where is the scientific hypothesis you're talking about? Certainly not from post #12, all I read there is his opinion. Also I don't think I've done anything than state the experiences of many players, many in this thread alone who agree with me. To suggest it's some kind of religious fervor is insulting and idiotic. Then to top it off you contradict yourself and state that you think your A model has changed by playing it. Again, as I said before I think it has more to do with playing than age. So what is your point exactly?

[Mark Christensen]

About a month ago I was corresponding with a well known and highly respected Luthier, he made the statement at various times about the tone changing on his Mandolins after an opening up process. Am I to conclude this was a sales pitch to sell more Mandolins? 1. I think he has more integrity than that. 2. He doesn't need my business according to his waiting list and the prices he can get for his instruments. 3. His build # is in the hundreds and has experienced this opening up process many times. I'm concluding this person knows what he's talking about through his experience. Now let me ask if you were to commission a Mandolin from any respected Luthier that made these statements what would your reaction be? 1. Oh that's a sales pitch! 2. That's the strings I'm using after two weeks! 3. The atmospheric pressure in my music room must have changed! If you want to believe that, that's your prerogative. Again my .02

[Ivan Kelsall]

A mandolin's 'voice' will change over a period of time.How long that is,is dependent on the mandolin & how much it's being played. I'm sure i've read on here that x-braced mandolins take longer to 'break in' than parallel braced ones. As all mine are parallel braced i don't know if that's absolutely true or not. Two other things that can affect mandolins on a day to day basis,are humidity & temprature. Here in the UK,humidity isn't so much of a big deal as it is in parts of the US,but temp. most certainly affects my mandolins. If they're cold,they sound tight & thin toned,when they get warm (living room temp.) they open up & sound amazing. I've found that if mine get cold, they go 'sharp' & when warm they go 'flat',all that needs is a slight re-tune,
Ivan

[JeffD]

I have heard various theories as to what "opening up" really is and some of them make a lot of sense. And I have experienced what I think is opening up, and many folks whose opinions I respect have agreed.

At the same time I know for a fact that perceptions change. I went through a period of taking wine seriously - tasting and taking classes and studying and touring vinyards and really getting into it. And I know my tastes changed. Not just that I liked different things, my perception of the wine became more complex and detailed. I developed mental labels for each part of the wind tasting experience and parts of the flavor, and I began to understand that it wasn't all BS, there really was something interesting there..

My point is that the wine didn't change, I changed. And I cannot say that something similar doesn't happen as I learn more and more about the tone of the mandolin and as I listen to my playing more and other's more and more.

What made me at least question my belief in "opening up" was a couple of questions someone on the forum asked in an earlier thread on this subject that got me thinking.

Someone asked - if playing the instrument changes it, is there such a thing as playing too much and changing it too much? Can an instrument get "played out"?

I have never heard of such a thing, but it if there is something mechanical going on with the wood, one might think it at least possible, and that I would have heard of one instance.

[chasray]

I have had mandolins that matured in sound or "opened up" as I continued to bang on them for years. However, I would never buy a mandolin I didn't already like how it sounded. There is no guarantee it will get better. Don't really like it now? Put it down. Step away.

[Mike Bunting]

Can an instrument get "played out"?

At a Monroestyle Mandocamp a few years ago, Bobby Osborne mentioned that he thought Monroe's mandolin was played out, perhaps because of the rebuild or through age.

[Frank Russell]

I definitely agree with Ivan's remarks about temperature, and would add altitude to the list of tone-changers. I know from experience a quick change in altitude will often throw my mandolin out of tune, no matter the quality of tuning machinery or the fact that the temperature was not much different down below. Never had one "play out," but due to MAS, I've never owned one long enough to find out. Frank

[LongBlackVeil]

I've talked to a couple of builders who say a good bit of the opening up process happens during the first few days of the instrument being strung up and I've never heard any builder claim that instruments don't open up. I've also experienced it myself with my old guitar (the only instrument I've owned long enough to notice a change). I really don't have any doubt that instruments change over time from regular use. I don't know if they always get better though.

Here's some science

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/02/27/sc...s-improve.html