Strum patterns rhythm vs chop rhythm

[belbein]

Someone recently posted a pretty comprehensive list of strum patterns, categorized by time signature. Something this morning made me start to wonder about how these relate to the rhythm of chop. I understand that you chop on the off-beat (downbeat?)--acting as the rhythm section. And I understand that if you're playing lead you might use those listed strum rhythms if you're not playing melody. But if you're backing someone up or strictly forming part of the band, would you use one of those strum patterns or would you ONLY chop or is there another set of strum patterns that you'd use off-beat to fill in the rhythm?

[belbein]

Man, this is sad. I guess it must have been a REALLY stupid question.

[9lbShellhamer]

What was the comprehensive list of strum patterns?

Chopping...strumming...it can all be rhythm.

It's about doing more than the typical boom chop we've grown accustomed to.

Listening to the people talk about Bill Monroe they are often refer to him as a rhythm genius, holding the rhythm in the band, driving it forward. Sam Bush is also known for holding strong rhythm in the band. Great rhythms can almost accent the melody and compliment it. We aren't held to boom chop, even if trying to please hardcore traditionalists we can be better rhythm players by accenting stronger more colorful rhythms.

In regards to the sheet I assume you might be referring to...if you're playing lead you would most likely not be using those rhythm patters...(notice I said most likely) They are most advantageous for rhythm backing.

[dwc]

It isn't a stupid question at all, but it is a complicated one to wrap your brain around. Typically in bluegrass you chop on the offbeat/backbeat, which is the 2 and 4 in 4/4. But this is only really applicable to bluegrass, and not even all of bluegrass. Look at something like "The Fox" by Nickel Creek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xnF7WglVHo

Whether you consider this bluegrass or not is open to interpretation (I think it is), but here Thile uses a pretty cool syncopated strum pattern to drive the tune. Just listen to what happens when drops out to play his solo and quote the Dylan song. The tune looses all of its forward drive. When he picks back up with the strum pattern, the song goes back into overdrive.

Here is another example from Thile and Michael Davies:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwbWgpbs8vQ

Thile uses an 8th note strum pattern as a kick-off, but settles into a more typical chop for the verses. He moves back to an 8th note strum to end the verses and kick off the chorus.

These are just two examples of more complicated strum patterns used in a bluegrassy context.

One more example of rhythm playing outside the traditional chop:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wtkYFy8LxE

Once again Thile uses an 8th note strum as a kick-off, but unlike the other Thile/Davis tune, he never really settles into a chop. He uses syncopation and 8th note strums to drive the tune.

You can get away with this busier, more progressive style of rhythm in duets and small ensembles, more easily than in a full band or jam. My rule of thumb is, the bigger the group, the less I do rhythmically, because it just becomes clutter. The line between drive and clutter can be quite fine.

[Franc Homier Lieu]

What was the comprehensive list of strum patterns?

The strumming patterns are in posts 5 and 6 of this thread:

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...g-pattern-help

[Mike Bunting]

And bear in mind, you are not THE rhythm section, but part of it. The nickel creek tune mentioned is not really a good example of a bluegrass song.

[9lbShellhamer]

Thanks. I'll have to play through those...

[belbein]

DWC: Thanks for your detailed and considered response. It was very helpful.

[belbein]

The chart I referred to (linked by Franc) is by mmuussiiccaall. Credit where credit is due.

[Markus]

You can get away with this busier, more progressive style of rhythm in duets and small ensembles, more easily than in a full band or jam. My rule of thumb is, the bigger the group, the less I do rhythmically, because it just becomes clutter. The line between drive and clutter can be quite fine.

This is an important point, one I struggle with at jams where the wall of noise makes me want to `fool around' but which results in even more cacaphony vs. playing it absolutely straight.

In a small group, there is room for one player to really drive things - provided you aren't overshadowing either lyrics or soloist, stepping on the banjo/etc player's attempt to drive the tune, and aren't dragging the tune somewhere it doesn't belong.

While I may enjoy the hard-driving end of bluegrass, not all songs should be foot stompers. Everything is better in moderation.

[KEB]

You can get away with this busier, more progressive style of rhythm in duets and small ensembles, more easily than in a full band or jam. My rule of thumb is, the bigger the group, the less I do rhythmically, because it just becomes clutter. The line between drive and clutter can be quite fine.

Quoted because I think it's the most important thing in your post.

The classic chop is perfect for a BG jam session with everyone in a circle and a half dozen to a dozen players picking along in a pickup type setting. Deviation from this is perfect for a smaller group setting (ie. guitar and mandolin or even solo mandolin) or one in which people understand what you're doing (like a band) and want to give you room to try it out. Otherwise it seems to become a kind of blanket wash of notes that don't drive like the boom-chuck of that bass and mandolin grooving in the pocket.

As an experiment, play and sing an easy bluegrass song with just a simple chop on 2 & 4. It sounds lousy, right? You need something there. Now add in a little pick on the bass string on 1 and 3-- it can either be a full note or just a click, and you'll see how that fills the sound out. Next time you're playing with a bass or a strong guitar, give it a try-- you're not adding anything. Now let that guitar player take a lead break. If you're just chopping all alone, he's probably going to get a bit lost. Now try adding that click in, and see how much better it works.

[JeffD]

What is the genre of music to which this question pertains?

[belbein]

It wasn't genre specific. Sort of a general question.

[wildpikr]

John McGann made a good video about different rhythms...

http://www.homespuntapes.com/Catalog...&ObjectType=27

[mandocrucian]

I'm not really a big fan of the chop and try to avoid it unless somehow I've landed in bluegrass lineup/jam. But playing with a drummer, it's not an issue; and, I'm usually playing other genres out of choice.

Here's a recent gig with an acoustic deadhead group; and there's hardly any mandolin "chop" anywhere in the 2 hours or so. except for "Broken Window Panes", the only real BG grooved song of the night. (Also, the only place where I play lead in a BG style, for anyone who thinks I can't or may have forgotten how).

I prefer playing electric guitar-like backup figures, or like a fiddle or even a keyboard.

The link to the audio is here
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...82#post1345482

Niles H

[James Rankine]

Here's a Thile-esque variant on the bluegrass boom chick. Like a lot of these things harder to pull off convincingly than you might think. It's particularly difficult to get a good chop after a quick up down pattern.

I really like these guys.