Online Mandolin Building Video Course Potential

[Geoff B]

Hey everyone,

I have been in touch with my friend Robbie O'Brien to potentially create an online Mandolin building course. Robbie has been doing this with guitars and Rosettes and French Polish for a few years with much success. He is of the mind, and me too, that a mandolin course would be a good fit in his instructional catalog.

I have been building mandolins for 10 years as a side-gig. I have taught a mandolin building class on and off for 8 years at one of the largest woodworking programs in the nation. I have been a High School teacher for students with learning disabilities for 7 years. An online course fits my passions for teaching and skills with building so I told Robbie I'd like to do it. Robbie is deeply connected with LMI, he has nearly 4 million views on his youtube channel, and he has been a huge force in teaching hundreds, if not thousands at this point, of people to build guitars.

I hope to get some input from folks who are beginner builders, folks who have taught building, or anyone who recollects the initial learning curve. I'm hoping people will share what they struggled with the most at the start, or areas where they could have benefited from more instruction. Even folks who have done a lot of repair and wish builders did certain tasks better. The course will be geared toward first-timers who want to build an A-style mandolin from scratch and have visual instruction for every step from making forms and jigs to finish and set-up. Robbie has been successful with this with guitars for a few years and it makes sense that we give it a go with mandolins.

Robbie's online guitar courses are around 24 hours of downloadable or streamable video. This course will likely be at least that much. We will cover making forms and jigs, building through every step and covering, to various degrees, alternatives or traditional methods. Carving will be by hand. At the end a student should have a completely finished carved top/back A-style mandolin, well set-up and the knowledge and skills to continue building if he or she chooses to. It will start with a box of lumber, so building from scratch.

My question for the community is, what kinds of things would you expect or like to see in an online course like this? What were the major hang ups as you experienced the learning curve? What could you have learned more of earlier to ease the learning pains you went through as a builder? I've been through it myself, I have taught more than 30 people through my classes, but I figure it is always worth asking the community at large.

Thanks,
Geoff

[bart mcneil]

Are you referring to a course which people would pay for? or a free course on You Tube?

It would seem to me that if you want interaction between the builder the teacher then some form of instant communication is important and that suggests that a number of folks are building the same or similar instruments at the same time. And I think that means that they would have to have a specific list of wood to build the various parts of the mando.

With this in mind it might prove helpful to the student for the instructor(s) to have a packaged set of wood parts to ship to any student so that he can be assured that he is getting quality wood of the correct sizes necessary. This would allow the students to start their build at roughly the same time and the teacher could reply to the students via the internet,hopefully so that others might benefit and ask questions of the teacher or his fellow builders.

I believe that this is being done successfully by various teachers of mando and I don't see any reason why it couldn't be done from a building standpoint. In essence I think it could be a good idea. It would just seem to me though that if some way could be found to make it a dialogue between teacher, student, and his fellow students it would be beneficial.

The reason I mentioned cost is that I feel that the student should be willing to pay something to participate in this, because payment of $s suggests commitment and his more likely follow through as a student builder.

[ianbarton]

As a woodworker (and potential student of yours!) I would be willing to pay for this if the price is right, and if its free, then Im definitely In. I woud love to make a mandolin.

Like Bart said, getting a set of the proper parts would be a good way to start, and that would be one way to make some money, and then offer the classes for free. Just one idea in terms of making money without being price pohibitive.

I feel that letting each student work at their own pace would be important due to the fact that every woodworker I have met has worked at different paces and at different degrees of accuracy.

As a potential student, I would love to have warnings along the way for potential areas where you could screw up with big repercussions vs "fudge" areas (areas that if not perfect...not the end of the world because it will be covered up later for example).

[Geoff B]

Thanks Bart,
That's great feedback. It would have a cost associated. Robbie's online guitar courses run for $225 and the materials are a special kit with Robbie's name through LMI, purchased separately, that has everything you need and, I believe, the ability to customize. We were thinking something similar with the mandolins and have begun talking with LMI about it. They currently aren't offering a mandolin kit. I'm not sure that's exactly how it will end up, but it is in line with what we are thinking.

Interactivity with the instructor is huge, and while 24+ hours of video with explanation and showing each step being completed should be good, Robbie does have an online forum for his students and I believe we would set something up like this for the mando class too. Immediate feedback may or may not be possible, but I would think responses within 24 hours is reasonable. That's standard policy for me with any business.

When I teach the class at Red Rocks we have about 120 hours of classtime, and I estimate about 1/4 of that is instruction time, the rest being work time. Students regularly were able to complete an instrument in the white. With video we will be able to streamline the length of instruction and add the finishing piece.

[Geoff B]

Thanks Ian,
I was writing while you posted. Good insight about woodworkers. The video presentation is ideal for this because you can pause, rewind (does anyone say that anymore?) or skip as necessary.

We joke frequently that half the job is learning how to deal with your mistakes (or turn them into "design opportunities"). It happens and the value of having an instructor is in learning how to avoid them vs. learning how to fix them. I've made every mistake any of my students has ever made before so there is plenty of discussion about what to watch out for. Sometimes they do it despite my warning... such is the life of a teacher! Sometimes I do it too, we are all human after all.

I don't know what it would look like if we need to source the kits ourselves, but having a package deal of materials (everything you need to build) in addition to the instruction is what we are thinking right now.

[ianbarton]

Well I am definitely excited to hear more as it becomes reality. "design opportunities" are what my architecture proffesor used to call "post rationalization." (or BS for short) definitely done plenty post rationalizing myself in woodworking!

[sliebers]

Hi Geoff,

I have Robbie's steel string course. I've been building guitars and mandolins slowly over the past 10 years or so. I bought Robbie's video series just last year. I wish I would have had it from the start. I've figured out a lot of things the hard way. Robbie is very good at getting right to the point and teaching what works. I reference the guitar building course a lot and am working towards streamlining how I do things to become more efficient. I feel the video series has done just that for me. It's the next best thing to taking the class with him in person. I wish I could do that, but there's no way I could take the time to do so at this point.
I think a mandolin building course done in the style Robbie's videos are made would be very helpful. Showing methods that work and try to eliminate as much of the mystery as possible. For a beginner, there's a lot of things that can lead them astray such as top and back graduating, and tone bar tuning. Perhaps some of those details could be addressed to show a method that gets results.
Additionally, the finish is another pitfall for many. A traditional oil varnish and FP topcoat seems out of reach. There are many different approaches, but again something like Robbie's FP course applied to mandolin would be really helpful. For instance, what kind of oil varnish will work, how to apply it. How many coats? How long to let it cure before applying FP, and then how to FP.
Those are things I'd be interested in. I do think there's a need for such a video course.

[Geoff B]

Thanks Sliebers,
It's good to get feedback from someone familiar with Robbie's style. Streamlined and efficient are big goals, as is understanding what you are doing and why you are doing it.
Finishing is a big stumbling block for just about everyone. It takes much more attention and care than many people understand when just getting started. I believe we will be able to address this adequately through the course, though I'm still thinking through how we will handle it in the best possible way.

[Michael Lewis]

New maker's frustrations: bending sides, fitting neck joints, cutting binding ledges, installing binding, inlay work, fret work, set up, finish work.

Most of these points can take a small book to cover each of them, and they can also be covered quickly and to the point so the student can get a suitable result. So much depends on the ability to communicate your ideas clearly, and the ability of the student to grasp them.

Years ago Mario Proulx and I taught a mandolin course on mimf.com, and the most surprising thing to me was that the experienced violin makers seemed to have more difficulty than the beginners. "This is more difficult than making a violin" was the remark. Dovetail neck joint and binding I think were the major snags for the violin guys.

My first few forays through a F5 were indeed frustrating. I had Roger Siminoff's book and a few tools, but I eventually found my way because I didn't give up. It was painful at times. The major issue I had with Roger's book was concepts like neck joints or carving plates, or whatever were explained in one way but I needed more perspective, to see each problem from another angle so to speak. It really helps to know why, not just how.

[Pete Jenner]

One of the most difficult things for beginners like me is fitting (not laying out or cutting) the compound dovetail joint.
Almost every other aspect of building is covered in books or on the internet. I'd like to see a John Hamlett photo essay on this subject. I'd even be willing to sling him some dough for it. Anyone else?


One of the pitfalls of video tutorials, and something that puts me off watching them, is long preambles. Get to the point quickly and don't waste time introducing yourself and giving the viewer a lengthy explanation of your personal homespun philosophy on why you do a certain thing a certain way and how grateful you are to be presented with the opportunity to do the video or how to hold a chisel and how many different types of chisels there are (unless of course the subject of the video is chisels). Too many (mostly American) woodworking video presenters spend half the video prattling on about irrelevant rubbish before getting to the interesting bit. Don't do that or I for one won't be a customer.

...and don't do a lengthy title sequence or background music.

[Tom Haywood]

I prefer to build using mostly hand tools. Learning something from a video where the presenter is demonstrating the technique using expensive tools and complicated jigs to make those tools work for the task is a turn-off for me. I look for Rob's videos on Youtube, because he usually shows how to use the expensive tools but also comments on how to do it without them. That helps me to understand the reasons behind the particular task. My preference would be to reverse it and say that this is how the task was traditionally done by hand and this is how you can do it with power equipment.

[Bernie Daniel]

.....One of the pitfalls of video tutorials, and something that puts me off watching them, is long preambles. Get to the point quickly and don't waste time introducing yourself and giving the viewer a lengthy explanation of your personal homespun philosophy on why you do a certain thing a certain way and how grateful you are to be presented with the opportunity to do the video.......and don't do a lengthy title sequence or background music.

Great advice!!! Especially loud background music!

[Geoff B]

Awesome feedback guys! I'm pretty decided to do the violin style Siminoff neck joint with dowels. For ease of entry into the craft I think this is the way to start. Some may argue that point, and I would consider the tapered dovetail, or even the regular dovetail, an advanced technique to give a shot on your second or later builds. Some people get it quickly, some don't. The course will be geared toward people first starting out. Later on I can see adding F-styles and various neck-joint-options, as well as edge treatments and finish choices, but first-things-first as they say.
Binding slots we will discuss several options, all leading to the same result, so do what you can/can afford/are comfortable with kind of thing.
Great insight Michael. It helps to hear that from guys with your talent... that you just need to keep at it. It certainly has been true for me so far.
Peter I am in complete agreement about the irrelevant aspects. Trust me, I'm very sensitive to that component of our culture. The nice thing with video is you can skip what you don't like! :-)
Tom, Robbie and I discussed the trend for folks who favor hand tools these days and I use them quite a bit in my work. They will be addressed a lot in the course, and used quite a bit. Since the course is geared toward newer builders, there is an assumption that you may not have all the power tools or fancy tools available to you. My only power tool when I got started was a corded drill and a whole lot of motivation!

[Whittle]

I for one would love an online resource for building. I just completed my first kit build this year, and I found that I had the most trouble thinking of how to build my own tools, such as a good graduating caliper, without paying through the nose for a pre-built one. I ended up making mine from plywood and a dial caliper from Harbor Freight, but it would have been nice to have a tutorial on how to build it.

It'd also be nice to see how to build forms and jigs for assembly. I'm glad you're planning on including that. I don't have many power tools, so watching a course where the majority of the work is by hand would be ideal for me!

[Pete Jenner]

Geoff, I think the Siminoff dowel joint has been covered many times - firstly by Roger himself in his book/s and then by Darrell Sheppard's videos and probably by others, whereas a good detailed tutorial on fitting the compound dovetail doesn't seem to exist.

[Michael Lewis]

Fitting a compound dovetail is not so much a process that you can go step by step, you have to herd the cats (all the contact surfaces) more or less all at once. So getting the concept of the process and how the surfaces fit in your mind is the key. You have to set your guides (masking tape "gun sights" on neck center line and target card taped to the tail area, marks on side of neck where it will meet the top edge of the body to establish the over stand, and a straight edge for setting the pitch angle). You have to constantly check all these alignments through the fitting process and continue making adjustments as you go. You sneak up on it bit by bit rather than cutting it to fit first time out. If you want to set up for production you can go through the laborious 'set up' for machining of the joint. It's easier to just hand fit your necks unless you have a pile of them to work on. Once you have been through the process and got good results you just get better from there.

[derbex]

How beginner would beginner be -I can bang in a nail -sometimes I even get it straight

[Pete Jenner]

Michael, that is just the sort of thing explanation we need in video form. Everyone seems to have different techniques.
I know one builder who uses a pen (pocket) knife and a gouge - others use chisels and so on. It takes me 10 times longer than it probably should so just seeing how others do it would be helpful.

[Michael Lewis]

Don McRostie has a set up to cut about 95% of the neck joint on a table saw using a special cutter. It took him many many hours to get it adjusted and set to actually do the job and it probably wasted considerable material in the process. The point is that you can set up to machine the joint (at great expense in machinery and time) or you can just do it by hand and get it done. Even if you make a set up like Don's you still have to do the final fitting by hand, and there you need the knowledge and skill to do the hand work. It's just that much of the waste material is removed by the 'machine'.

I use a band saw to rough out the parts and then 'refine' them by hand until they fit. In the process I use a small gouge, chisels, and sand paper strips to do the final adjustment of the cheeks of the neck against the body. It's not rocket science, once you get through the process you can do it again and it will go more quickly the second time, and so on. Just dig in and make it happen.

[Pete Jenner]

That's the same way I do it but I still want to SEE someone else doing it.
It would be far more useful than watching someone do a boring old dowel joint (which I will never use) AGAIN.

[sunburst]

I agree, there is a lot to learn from watching someone cut and fit a dovetail, we each develop our own variations of the process, and seeing someone else's methods may well teach all of us something.
I think Geoff should go ahead with the doweled mortise and tenon joint though, because learning to fit a compound dovetail could cause folks with limited (or no) experience to get bogged down in that process at the expense of learning lutherie. Fitting a dovetail is woodworking. Lutherie requires woodworking skills, but ideally we learn them previously and bring them with us when we start building instruments. It's not an ideal world, and many of us start building instruments without a background in woodworking. If we are to learn instrument building from an on-line course, it is probably best to streamline the methods for building the instrument, and if we want to learn woodworking procedures like fitting dovetail joints, we can "wood shed" on that (since there should be plenty of scrap wood out there to work with).
So, perhaps the on-line mandolin building course could use the doweled mortise and tenon and provide a link to a dovetail tutorial for those advanced enough in their woodworking abilities to benefit from it without distracting them from the job at hand; making a mandolin.

[Pete Jenner]

I agree, there is a lot to learn from watching someone cut and fit a dovetail, we each develop our own variations of the process, and seeing someone else's methods may well teach all of us something.
I think Geoff should go ahead with the doweled mortise and tenon joint though, because learning to fit a compound dovetail could cause folks with limited (or no) experience to get bogged down in that process at the expense of learning lutherie. Fitting a dovetail is woodworking. Lutherie requires woodworking skills, but ideally we learn them previously and bring them with us when we start building instruments. It's not an ideal world, and many of us start building instruments without a background in woodworking. If we are to learn instrument building from an on-line course, it is probably best to streamline the methods for building the instrument, and if we want to learn woodworking procedures like fitting dovetail joints, we can "wood shed" on that (since there should be plenty of scrap wood out there to work with).
So, perhaps the on-line mandolin building course could use the doweled mortise and tenon and provide a link to a dovetail tutorial for those advanced enough in their woodworking abilities to benefit from it without distracting them from the job at hand; making a mandolin.

Good points, well made as usual. When will you have the compound dovetail tutorial ready? It's only Wednesday in America so Saturday shouldn't be too much trouble should it?

[sunburst]

How about by 5:00 today? I should be able to find video equipment, someone to operate it, build a mandolin to the proper stage of completion, fit the dovetail, find an editor, and upload the video by then...

[Pete Jenner]

No need to rush. 6.

[Geoff B]

Great thoughts guys. I think John nailed what I had meant to write. The goal is to learn to build a mandolin which may lead to learning different ways to do it. The distinction between lutherie and woodworking is especially poignant, though they obviously must co-exist. And while many things are covered in various places, having them in one place without needing to search around is a value-add that I am proposing. I imagine a lot of talented, skilled people lose motivation or don't consider the possibility because of the energy required to find this youtube video, or read that thread in that forum, or read and interpret this book, or that book, or find out how the violin makers do it. Lots of us picked up the pieces as we went by doing this, but I think there is room for a seriously comprehensive course like this. I can see going into more specific things (like Robbie has a french polish course, a rosette course, etc.) and more advanced techniques in the future. I really appreciate your enthusiasm Peter and agree that there is a need for a video of someone fitting a compound dovetail neck joint, but I believe this will be down the road from my end, and perhaps even with collaboration of people who may be interested in teaming up. I don't want to get too far ahead of myself.
Derbex, beginner in the sense that you may not have experienced building before, or you've done a kit, or you've done one or two on your own but feel you could use a boost over some of the learning curve. A basic understand of woodworking tools and how they work, and importantly how to be safe with them. Another important thing, as in all endeavors, is the desire and motivation to follow through. You may be relieved to know that there will be no hammering of nails. But lots of cutting to a line. :-)
Whittle, Robbie and I have discussed having plans for tools or jigs we use but I want to be careful about adding too much side-stuff. Once we get it mapped out I'll have a better idea of what it will actually look like. Some things may be plans, some may have actual footage... we will see. We want to keep it simple and straightforward.