Studying Bill Monroe

[DataNick]

... His rythym and drive is pretty foreign to me. Like a lot of people say, it's the right hand that differentiates Bill from everyone else

That's the key!

He "sped up" the Blues and added in Scotts-Irish Fiddle tunes, Swing-style bass, country guitar, and Earl's driving banjo. If you think about accenting on beats 2 & 4 in a typical 1-4-5 blues number, that's rhythmically what the mandolin chop is doing, albeit at warp speed compared to most blues.

Bill Monroe's solo licks, at least to me though, just ooze blues...Take "Lonesome Moonlight Waltz" for example. To me it's a great blues-melody put to waltz-time; which I would never dream of doing...but that melody line to me is straight up blues.

Fascinating stuff!

[Timbofood]

"Powerful" right hand!

[Ivan Kelsall]

It's been said many,many times that there was a whole lot of 'Blues' in Bill Monroe's mandolin playing. It makes me wonder about the influence that Arnold Schultz had on the young BM back when Bill was learning. We know that BM really revered AS a a great 'Blues man' & if Bill had a leaning towards that style,then it's no great wonder that his music has so much of a Blues 'feel' to it,even after
he got the 'original' Bluegrass band together. Again,it's been said that Chuck Berry took on board a few Monroe 'licks' to adorn his guitar style & again,i wonder how many of those originated from Mr Schultz ?,
Ivan

[Mike Bunting]

Of course he was a bluesman.



Here's a vid of Bill's jam partner in the pic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co-lFidsM6Q

[ralph johansson]

My motive for learning the mandolin in the 60's was that I had transcribed several tunes from Howdy Forrester's "Fancy Fiddlin' Country Style" but found them a bit awkward on the guitar - too many string crossings. These tunes are mainly made up of arpeggios and scales so when I was more into Bluegrass I tried to apply this vocabulary to solos on songs. I never was that attracted to Monroe, because of his use of repeated notes, but I did transcribe, e.g., Rawhide - I heard a lot of notes that weren't really there, because I needed them. If there was any inspiration from Monroe it was his use of the blues. The four bar introduction
to Blue Grass Pt. 1 illustrated the idea of alternating two approaches: following the changes, or superimposing the blues scale over them. Once I got this idea I was off on my own.


There's a lot of talk about Monroe´s rhythm. Frankly I find it a bit square, very obedient of bar lines and periods, so I had to look in other directions for inspiration, e.g., fiddling (Blue Grass or Western Swing) and country style lead guitar (e.g., Zeke Turner).

I do play a few of his tunes. The Moonlight Waltz, which I learned in about the time it took to play Baker's recording. Crossing the Cumberlands, where I tried to get the same notes as the banjo (locking my index finger on the 5th fret in the first part). Ah, yes, I almost forgot Jerusalem Ridge. But after hearing Thile soloing on it (with Mark O'Connor) I'm not sure I want to play it any more.

My attitude to Bluegrass from the very beginning was, what's in it for me, what can I do with it.

[re simmers]

I like the influence that the 'boys' had on Bill's music. His original recording of Blue Night has a walking bass nearly through the whole song. The banjo is spectacular. It's played at about 75% of Hot Rize speed. It bounces right along with lots of drive....right 'in the groove.'
Bill's music is certainly about feel. That's what I love about music; it brings emotion and energy. Sometime rough, sometimes smooth, but Bill's music certainly had a feel to it.

Like DataNick, I wish I could play the Roanoke kickoff!

Bob

[JeffD]

"If you want to learn to play the mandolin, you have to learn to play bluegrass and that means learning Bill Monroe."

"You need to know one style very well", he told our class, "If you play a lot of styles and don't know one really well, you will never learn to play the mandolin." Once you learn a style thoroughly, and he makes no bones that for mandolin that style should be bluegrass, you can go on and play other styles.

What do you say? Or should I continue what I'm doing and keep trying to emulate my true mandolin heroes?

I am going to have to disagree with Andy Statman.

I think it greatly depends on the types of music you want to excel at, and how excellent you want to get.

The mandolin is good at so many things there really isn't a core genre that will prepare you for everything. And while bluegrass is popular (relatively), I don't believe the majority of the world's mandolins being played today are playing bluegrass. Bill Monroe is a powerful path, for sure, but not the only path.

And how far do you want to go. If you answer, "as far as possible", well I would say that unless you are a musical prodigy or under 15 years old, Andy is right, best to pick one genre and mine it to the bottom, and I believe, at the deliberate expense of excellence in other genres. For non prodigies that start later in life, there is only time enough to really excel at one or two genres.

I think for most of us, pursue all the things you love with all your heart and don't look back. Enjoy that the mandolin can and will be a field of exploration and discovery, no matter what one's present level or how good one gets, and can always give the comfort of home too, within the genres and styles in which one becomes conversant. You may never get to the point where Andy believes you are a mandolin player, but by gosh you will have great whole moving rivers of fun.

I really believe this.

To me there is only one genre worth giving up every other, and that would be classical music. To me its the genre that most repays the work put into it. But since I enjoy other things so much, I am content to enjoy being an earnest dabbler in classical music while I jam out to old time, and IT, and old cowboy waltzes.

So your answers to those two questions, what types of music do you want to excel at, and how excellent do you want to be, are the key to solving the riddle.

[foldedpath]

I am going to have to disagree with Andy Statman.

I think it greatly depends on the types of music you want to excel at, and how excellent you want to get.

The mandolin is good at so many things there really isn't a core genre that will prepare you for everything. And while bluegrass is popular (relatively), I don't believe the majority of the world's mandolins being played today are playing bluegrass. Bill Monroe is a powerful path, for sure, but not the only path.

I agree with your disagreeing.

If I was sure I wanted to play only Choro music, I think diving into a deep study of Jacob do Bandolim and the other leading lights of that music would get me further, and faster, than beginning with Monroe as an entry point. Some Jazz theory wouldn't hurt either.

There are other genres that are even further from the "Monroe path" like Irish traditional music, with more variation in rhythm, and a totally different (one might say indifferent) approach to accompaniment. Also no improvisation at all, in the conventional sense. The entry path would more likely be a study of musicians playing other instruments, since the mandolin is still something of an outsider in the tradition.

A deep study of Monroe might help build hand strength and dexterity, but that's about all it will do in this context. It might even build in some bad habits to un-learn, like the heavy emphasis on straight-ahead 4/4 drive in Bluegrass. If you hear a good Bluegrass musician and a good Irish trad musician both play a fiddle tune like Fisher's Hornpipe or Red Haired Boy, they may be technically in the same time signature, but they'll be on two different planets for rhythm feel: "Planet 4/4 Drive" and "Planet 4/4 Lilt and Lift." Neither better than the other, but they sure are different approaches to the same tunes. A deep study of Monroe won't help with the other style because he never played like that. And studying the music of Kevin Burke or Matt Molloy won't help you much with Bluegrass either.

[JeffD]

I enjoy playing the mandolin more than I enjoy any particular genre of music played on the mandolin - so focusing on one to the exclusion of the others, even if it made me "that good" isn't worth it. I will take "pretty good" in three or four genres. Much more fun to be had.

All that said, I do understand what Statman is getting at. There is a level of depth, in any endeavor, not just music, but anything, literature, mathematics, anything, a level of depth that allows one to appreciate the achievements and depth of practitioners of other arts and sciences. Participate, maybe not, (unless you are a prodigy or start ten years before you are born), but certainly depth appreciates depth.

[stringalong]

[QUOTE=
Monroe himself would probably advise against trying to directly emulate his or any other artists' sound and offer advice in favor of finding your own sound through a combination of various external influences and your own stylistic take on the instrument. Imitation may result in limitation.

--Tom[/QUOTE]

Actually, Bill Monroe DID say essentially that -- if my memory is accurate, and I think it is in this case. In one of the music magazines in the 1970s, he was quoted as saying he got really tired of hearing himself over and over -- because that is what his imitators did (played exactly like him). Make it your own, he said.

Wish I could locate that quote exactly.

[stringalong]

I was determined to carve out a music of my own. I didn't want to copy anybody.
Read more at: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/au...ll_monroe.html


Bluegrass is wonderful music. I'm glad I originated it. Bill Monroe
Read more at: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/au...ll_monroe.html

[stringalong]

Some comments on perfect imitation of Bill Monroe vs playing it one's own way (which I'd call playing by heart): Regarding playing Old Time Fiddle tunes on the mandolin (which is much of what I do) I get a lot of comments from jammers and various websites that purport to "define" various traditions, such as Irish, Scottish, Appalachian,and just about every other related style. "Ya gotta play it this way...." each of them says. I've noticed some variation on what "this way" means to different people, too. When I jam with friends, we play several traditions, including Appalachian, Irish, some German, early Bluegrass, a touch of ragtime or raggy blues....And we play them our way. I'm an improviser by heart and by nature. I improvise music and my life, too. So I'm glad to find people at this thread saying essentially “...the whole key here is to play what you want in the manner that you want to play it” from commenter Data Nick

[stringalong]

Dear RoyBoy, Jim Adwell, Tom Coletti, and Data Nick

I'd be honored if each of you would give me permission to reprint the following quotes on my website www.traditionsstringband.net I'm putting them on there now, and will gladly remove them if you don't want them there. I''m also adding my own comment below yours.

From commenter RoyBoy
I've been a professional musician for 51 years . I have yet to see a rule book telling me what I HAVE to learn .

From commenter Jim Adwell
It almost seems like a truism to say that a player is going to be way more interesting to listen to playing in his/her own style within a given genre than imitating someone else's style. One can be influenced by various artists, and learn from them, but ultimately you're playing your own music, so revel in it, and have fun, because if you aren't having fun your audience won't be either.

From commenter Tom Coletti
Monroe himself would probably advise against trying to directly emulate his or any other artists' sound and offer advice in favor of finding your own sound through a combination of various external influences and your own stylistic take on the instrument. Imitation may result in limitation.

From commenter Data Nick
“the whole key here is to play what you want in the manner that you want to play it.”

flowerbells writes: Some comments on perfect imitation of Bill Monroe vs playing it one's own way (which I'd call playing from the heart): Regarding playing Old Time Fiddle tunes on the mandolin (which is much of what I do) I get a lot of comments from jammers and various websites that purport to "define" various traditions, such as Irish, Scottish, Appalachian,and just about every other related style. "Ya gotta play it this way...." each of them says. I've noticed some variation on what "this way" means to different people, too. When I jam with friends, we play several traditions, including Appalachian, Irish, some German, early Bluegrass, 19th and early 20th century songs, a touch of ragtime or raggy blues....And we play them our way. I'm an improviser by heart and by nature. I improvise music and my life, too. So I'm glad to find people at this thread saying essentially “...the whole key here is to play what you want in the manner that you want to play it” from commenter Data Nick.

from www.mandolincafe.com and http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ng-Bill-Monroe

[DataNick]

stringalong,

You can use my quote as long as you put it within the context of the complete statement as follows:
"I look at "Monroe Style" as an approach beyond simply note for note renditions of Bill Monroe's solos. It's more of a feel and an approach in "style" to playing the mandolin, much as for example Adam Steffey's style (though he can play any style) has a very heavy "classical" influence. Monroe's style is all about blues, using devices (double-stops with transitions, incessant right hand picking, staggered 16th notes strokes to name a few) to accomplish the feel he was after. I also feel it's a life-long process or endeavor for most of us, but you can get up to a reasonable speed with a few adaptations of techniques previously noted. Cafe member Shaun Garrity is a heck of a "Monroe picker" and he still takes lessons!

It's my favorite style to play, and while I admittedly have only begun to scratch the surface, it's a lot of fun and I find that folks really seem to dig it."

I have since discovered as well since that time that note for note renderings of Monroe's parts/licks can be very useful for understanding what's going on in a particular tune...

[stringalong]

Hello DataNick, thanks very much for writing back so quickly, and for your permission. I enjoy reading your comments at mandolin cafe. I regret that I don't think the entirety of the quote you permit me to use would fit the overall purpose of my site.

[varmonter]

So I have a 2 part question here. Do you believe there is truth to what Andy says here.

well yes and no...study only Monroe and you'll play like Monroe...how could you not.Sitting down and learning every monroe lick
ever recorded seems a bit OCD to me..Bill Liked Chuck Berry I know . But you can hear it in his playing.
But i agree every Bluegrass mandolin player should learn some of monroe style...But if thats all you do then you'll will be known as
"hey there is (you) he's a monroe style player..

And 2. How do I really go about studying Bill Monroes style? I have the Bill Monroe homespun tapes, I feel like I didn't get a lot out of them. I guess the best thing I can do is just listen to his music and try to cop his licks. But is that all there is to it? its actually pretty annoying trying to do that anyway because he's usually tuned a little bit sharp, so I have to retune my mandolin to do it. I can get close to matching his tuning with the amazing slow downers pitch slider though

I think every mandolin player going after Monroe should also study chuck berry Now did bill emulate berry or did berry emulate Bill ..who knows ..Bill himself always accredited Arnold Shultz as the person who was responsible for his blues influence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnold_Shultz
They say his fiddle was never recorded..too bad.It would have been nice to hear his style.
This fellow Andy seems a bit enamored with Bill Monroe..Thats ok it's good to have heros...but not false gods.
I listen to Bill Monroe recordings and I appreciate the history but never really thought of him as a great mandolin player.
He had his own style ..which is more important (historically and personally.. for him) than good technique i guess.
I much more appreciate the mandolin of Chris Thile . Who has learned numerous techniques and applied them to his own style.
I think he is technically much better than Bill could ever have been. ..Now there are the tradgrass purists that think what i say is
blasphemous..Please take a few deep breaths before responding with a flame..i am just trying to give the OP my opinion..a diverse conversation ..one would hope ..is always welcome here..

[DataNick]

varmonter,

You're dredging up an old, tired, played out argument that's been done to death on the cafe. Clearly, you don't understand Monroe, for his style at its core is blues, period. To state that one style is technically superior to another one is missing the point. Is Paco DeLucia technically superior to Johnny Winter? Two different stylistings with different end goals in mind; it's like comparing Willie Mays and Jim Brown...and btw: Chuck Berry was a Monroe head, not the other way around.

[varmonter]

Nope not stating that at all.. Sorry if you misunderstood or i wasn't clear. I think Thile is technically superior to Monroe..albeit Thile could play Monroe better than Monroe..
I understand Monroe is blues.i understand Bluegrass is his invention ..Scottish Appalachian African blues fusion if you will.
I get all that and certainly meant no disrespect to "The Father" .My point to the original poster was to learn Monroes Style if you want.
But learning other styles as well would make for a more well rounded musician..

[Mandoplumb]

Varmonter what you are saying is like saying a Red delicious is a better fruit than a Bartlette. You are not comparing apples to apples. Monroe is much better at Monroe style than Thile, and Thile is much better at Thile style than Monroe. What you are saying is that you prefer one to the other, not that ones better than the other. You like apples I like pears we both like fruit.

[almeriastrings]

I think Thile is technically superior to Monroe..albeit Thile could play Monroe better than Monroe..

Here we go again...

[FLATROCK HILL]

Varmonter what you are saying is like saying a Red delicious is a better fruit than a Bartlette. You are not comparing apples to apples. Monroe is much better at Monroe style than Thile, and Thile is much better at Thile style than Monroe. What you are saying is that you prefer one to the other, not that ones better than the other. You like apples I like pears we both like fruit.

Well...in reality, this is wrong. Apples are better than pears. Look at the facts.
Johnny Appleseed took a fruit that...yes, already existed...but he brought it to the masses on a whole new level.
Johnny Pearseed, with his more modern approach, might be technically better at planting, but he'll never hold a candle to the soul of the original.

[AlanN]

What I want to know is:

Did Monroe ever pick Red Apple Rag or sing Come All Ye Pear and Tender Ladies?

[Timbofood]

Well, that lends a more grounded fertilizer to this thread.
Having an understanding of as much stylistic diversity is so very valuable when trying to play music, any music.
I love trying to evoke Monroe, McReynolds, White, Clapton, Duffey et al. when I play.
I remember reading an interview with Frank Wakefield, where Monroe tells Frank that now that he's learned his style to go on and develop his own, I believe he told Peter Rowan the same thing.
Very fruitful information as long as you prune where you feel it healthy.
But, who plays....
"Comice All Ye Faithful" ?

[varmonter]

Varmonter what you are saying is like saying a Red delicious is a better fruit than a Bartlette. You are not comparing apples to apples. Monroe is much better at Monroe style than Thile, and Thile is much better at Thile style than Monroe. What you are saying is that you prefer one to the other, not that ones better than the other. You like apples I like pears we both like fruit.

Ok Ok i get it... it's like saying Hendricks was a better guitar player than Elvis...My apologies... ..

[varmonter]

Well, that lends a more grounded fertilizer to this thread.
Having an understanding of as much stylistic diversity is so very valuable when trying to play music, any music.
I love trying to evoke Monroe, McReynolds, White, Clapton, Duffey et al. when I play.
I remember reading an interview with Frank Wakefield, where Monroe tells Frank that now that he's learned his style to go on and develop his own, I believe he told Peter Rowan the same thing.
Very fruitful information as long as you prune where you feel it healthy.
But, who plays....
"Comice All Ye Faithful" ?

Thanks..
This is more in line with what i meant to say. than what i communicated..