Saga Kit in Hand

[jerryk]

Hello all,

The Saga kit arrived a few days ago. It's recognizably a mandolin kit. The woodworking is a bit rough, but no worse than you'd expect for a hundred bux, and
all fixable. And everything seems to be there.

The first two issues I see are 1) The binding channel is noticeably thin at one corner ( next to the neck ). It will need to be routed to the same depth as the rest, or the binding
will look odd after it gets shaved. 2) The neck does not sit all the way into its notch, because the top is curved, and the inside of the neck is flat. I'm thinking that the way to
fix this is to sand the inside of the neck curved to match the top, rather than sanding the top flat to match the neck. Even though sanding the top would be easier. Because the top is actually a resonator/speaker-cone.

Before I touch the actual kit, I want to make clamps and holding fixtures. I have materials in hand to make approx 25 spool clamps.

[bart mcneil]

Be a bit cautious as to what you do with the neck joint. In manufacturing that joint is dry fit individually to the body joint before it is packaged. Normally it takes a bit of force to get it to seat properly I had to tap mine iightly with a mallet to get it to seat itself properly. I had a similar problem with the binding channel but it certainly is fixable This is all part of what makes the kit interesting for the beginner. it forces the novice builder to deal with the fine tuning of the woodworking as supplied. But that is what the kit is supposed to do and I would not call these necessary adjustments "problems".

[Pribar]

I believe he is talking about the fingerboard extension over the top, not the joint itself, if that is the case profile the bottom of the extension to follow the shape of the top, not the other way around. These kits are rough but with a little care, research and a lot of sweat, capable of becoming fairly good instruments, just pay attention to detail, google any questions you may have then come here for any clarification you may need, this forum has some of the best in the business on it, which is why I lurk around here just to snatch up any tips or tricks to make my shop life easier

[mandolinplucker]

One thing to be mindful of. You can take wood off but you can't put it back. Take your time.

[jerryk]

You can take wood off but you can't put it back.

*** Truer words were never spoken. That's one reason I'm trying to build all the jigs and tools before starting on the actual kit. So I can get into a woodworking mindset. So far have built one spool clamp. The house donated a closet pole. My big Bosch miter saw needs adjustment - the right angles are not quite....

Amazon served up some very nice 1/8 cork sheet with one peel'n'stick side. An OLFA circle cutter did a nice job making little disks.

Have been reading the Siminoff book. Do these kits sound decent without "graduation"? Do people do the gauze reinforcement for the F holes that he describes? Am most concerned with "quality" of the sound, less about volume. I'm not good enough to play with other people, and don't expect to be good enough for a long time - if ever.

Siminoff's description is very interesting though. Basically you're building a sort of speaker cone. I definitely plan to build the thickness measuring tool to at least measure it and see what I've got. That's where my metalworking hobby comes in handy - steel C frame for a dial indicator? Piece of cake! Pretty sure there's a dial indicator buried in the junk somewhere....

[jerryk]

Be a bit cautious as to what you do with the neck joint. In manufacturing that joint is dry fit individually to the body joint before it is packaged. Normally it takes a bit of force to get it to seat properly I had to tap mine iightly with a mallet

*** I want to limit the number of "test tries" - don't want to wear out the joint!

[bigskygirl]

I filed both until I got a good fit. It took me a long time to get it fit properly.

[Bernie Daniel]

*** Truer words were never spoken. That's one reason I'm trying to build all the jigs and tools before starting on the actual kit. So I can get into a woodworking mindset. So far have built one spool clamp. The house donated a closet pole. My big Bosch miter saw needs adjustment - the right angles are not quite....

I notice you can buy spool clamps for about $2.95 each from IV -- can you make them for much cheaper than that? I figure you need about 20 for a mandolin right?

...Do these kits sound decent without "graduation"?

Also wondering about that question

... Am most concerned with "quality" of the sound, less about volume. I'm not good enough to play with other people, and don't expect to be good enough for a long time - if ever...

Hey if I can play a mandolin anyone can!

Siminoff's description is very interesting though. Basically you're building a sort of speaker cone. I definitely plan to build the thickness measuring tool to at least measure it and see what I've got...That's where my metalworking hobby comes in handy - steel C frame for a dial indicator? Piece of cake! Pretty sure there's a dial indicator buried in the junk somewhere....

You can purchase a digital calipers with a 6" throat for $22 from Harbor Freight that should cover a mandolin top graduation?

[Bill Snyder]

Bernie, if you are talking about this caliper it will not work on the Saga kit. The sides are already attached to the top.

[bart mcneil]

But you can modify the caliper to work by attaching something as simple as a three or four inch section of a ruler or dowel to the arm of the caliper with tape and it will easily reach inside and measure the thickness of the top or bottom.

Or you can make your on caliper out of wood and a section of ruler. Very simple but perhaps not as pretty. In past threads there were several solutions for home made calipers, all of which worked nicely.

[jerryk]

Bernie, if you are talking about this caliper it will not work on the Saga kit. The sides are already attached to the top.

Judging from the reviews, it won't work with much of anything. The second review from the top is especially entertaining.

BEST USES - "Shiny Thing For Cats"

[bennyb]

Howdy Jerry,

Here's an ancient thread with lots of variations on the same basic idea for a thickness gauge.

good luck, benny

[Bernie Daniel]

Bernie, if you are talking about this caliper it will not work on the Saga kit. The sides are already attached to the top.

Yes I was aware of that issue but I could easily extend the upper contact point it would clear the sides and still meet on the top board. The only question is could I get to zero out OK that way?

[Bernie Daniel]

Judging from the reviews, it won't work with much of anything. The second review from the top is especially entertaining. BEST USES - "Shiny Thing For Cats"

Thanks for the heads up.

Yes, I did see the reviews and decided that I would do like the one guy did and test it out before I left the parking lot -- some of them seem to work some don't.

I have bought several of those kind digital calipers (none with a deep throat) from various sources over the years --some work for many years some go kaput after less time.

You can get around the mandolin sides issue by merely extending the upper contact point so it will clear. The accuracy thing is the biggest concern. I am looking to see if a more robust version exists under a more respected tool company name.

[mandolinplucker]

You asked if you needed to graduate the top. YES. Right now it is just a few pieces of wood. The only thing that makes it a mandolin is what you do with the wood. A friend asked me why it took so long to build a IV kit. I told him to get a kit and the book and build one and see. He glued the bars in,glued the kit together, sanded it, brushed on some poly, and screwed on the hardware. He was proud that his only took 3 hours to build. It was butt ugly (which don't really matter that much), there was no recurve and the plate was so thick that it couldn't move, the fretwork was so bad it wouldn't play past some frets, and it sounded like warmed over do-do. You need to read and reread the book to understand how a mando works and how to make it work. Without trying to get fancy and tune to a certain note you must look at the plans and get the graduations close to the measurements on the plans. that will get you close and sound pretty good.

[jerryk]

You asked if you needed to graduate the top. YES. you must look at the plans and get the graduations close to the measurements on the plans.

*** The plans in the Siminoff book? That's for an F style instrument. I guess the basic shape isn't *that* different.

- Jerry

[jerryk]

[QUOTE=Bernie Daniel;1336538]I notice you can buy spool clamps for about $2.95 each from IV -- can you make them for much cheaper than that? I figure you need about 20 for a mandolin right?

*** OK, $2.95 * 20 is $59, plus let's say $10 shipping - total $69.

So far my cost is:

One closet pole - $0.00
( that's cheating - someday I might need to convert that particular closet back to clothing use )

Threaded rod, 1/4-20 6" long qty 20 - $15.10 from Amazon
1/8" cork sheet with peel n'stick - $19.94 ( shipping was high )
( actually, after ordering this, I discovered some 1/16" sheet cork in my junk, would've worked )
steel flat washers, 1/4" qty 100 - $3.82 plus tax ( amazon )
wing nut assortment - $7.99 plus tax ( amazon )
nyloc nuts, qty 100 - $8.62 plus tax ( amazon )

For a total cost of $55.47 plus tax. Rats. Should have just bought them from IV. Actually, I didn't know they had
them - web searches only unearthed stewmac - who sell qty 6 for just over $30. Well, I'll wind up with some
spare parts. That press n'stick cork looks like it will have lots of uses. And I *do* enjoy making stuff.

[Jeff Mando]

Hey jerryk,
Looks like you have the right idea and it is fun to make tools that you can use for years and years. I did a similar thing about 20 years ago and made some spool clamps. I checked with StewMac and whatever the price was, I thought, hey, that's just a threaded rod and some wing nuts, washers, spacers and cork, right? Anyway, the threaded rod is a couple bucks at your local hardware store and comes in three or four foot lengths, easily cut to size with a hacksaw. Could have saved ya some shipping there. Same with the cork, wing nuts, and washers--available at the hardware store. I actually made a few clamps that were 2-3 feet long for odd repairs such as spanning the back of a guitar body or upright bass clamping. Doesn't get used but a few times a year and make sure and protect the finish from the threads digging in, but I made them years ago and still have them. The small spools clamps I use all the time. Good luck with the kit!

[jerryk]

Hey jerryk,
Anyway, the threaded rod is a couple bucks at your local hardware store and comes in three or four foot lengths, easily cut to size with a hacksaw.

Yeah, I see those at the store all the time. But nowadays, I *never* go to the store when I can point & click. I have Amazon prime,
and get free two-day shipping on a lot of stuff. Of course, they build it into the price somehow, but it's still pretty cheap. I found
packages of six-inch long rods that I don't even have to cut!

My situation right now, is - it's *hard* for me to get out of the house. Because I have these two 12-month-old babies that
I take care of. Mommy leaves for work at 0500, and I have the duty until 3:00 in the afternoon or so.

WRT cutting them with a hacksaw - I have a little benchtop abrasive cutoff saw that makes cutting that stuff absolutely trivial.
Just clamp it, push the button, pull the handle.

Thanks for the good words, Jeff!

[jerryk]

Howdy Jerry,

Here's an ancient thread with lots of variations on the same basic idea for a thickness gauge.

good luck, benny

*** Thanks, Benny! That was an interesting thread. I especially like the guy who mounted a tape measure at the end of his C...

Here's what I think I will do - bear in mind that I do have a bit of a metalworking shop in the garage. I will take a length - say
2 feet - of 1/8" by 1" hot-rolled steel strap. Bend it in a ring roller to the shape of a "U" - this gives me the basic C shape, but it
is not strong or stable enough. I will then weld a strip of strap to each arm, perpendicular to it. Then cut an end piece out of
1/8" steel plate. I can cut a curve matching the radius of the U with the plasma cutter ( with circle cutting jig ). Weld that up to
the bottom of the U. I will then have a nice stiff frame. I could weld feet to the bottom so it can stand on a workbench standalone, or plan to clamp it in a vise when I use it.

My imagination is not showing me how to clamp the dial indicator to the end of the C, but I'm sure something will come to me. There will also need to be a matching "point" coming up from the lower arm. I can turn the end of a bolt flat on the lathe and weld it up.... Or maybe use one of the really nice tips from that inside micrometer in the measurement equipt drawer...

[Bill Snyder]

FWIW, the second mandolin I built (almost 10 years ago) was from one of these kits. Once I got all of the tool marks out of the plates and checked the thickness of the them they were at or less than the target thicknesses given in the first Siminoff book. I do not know if they are all that way or not. That is why you need the caliper.
And I was the fellow that built the thickness caliper with the tape measure. It would measure to 1/32". Shortly after that post I broke down and purchased a dial caliper to use.

[Bernie Daniel]

[QUOTE=jerryk;1336713]

I notice you can buy spool clamps for about $2.95 each from IV -- can you make them for much cheaper than that? I figure you need about 20 for a mandolin right?

*** OK, $2.95 * 20 is $59, plus let's say $10 shipping - total $69.

So far my cost is:

One closet pole - $0.00
( that's cheating - someday I might need to convert that particular closet back to clothing use )

Threaded rod, 1/4-20 6" long qty 20 - $15.10 from Amazon
1/8" cork sheet with peel n'stick - $19.94 ( shipping was high )
( actually, after ordering this, I discovered some 1/16" sheet cork in my junk, would've worked )
steel flat washers, 1/4" qty 100 - $3.82 plus tax ( amazon )
wing nut assortment - $7.99 plus tax ( amazon )
nyloc nuts, qty 100 - $8.62 plus tax ( amazon )

For a total cost of $55.47 plus tax. Rats. Should have just bought them from IV. Actually, I didn't know they had
them - web searches only unearthed stewmac - who sell qty 6 for just over $30. Well, I'll wind up with some
spare parts. That press n'stick cork looks like it will have lots of uses. And I *do* enjoy making stuff.

Thanks for the detailed assessment -- costs do add up don't they? Like you say though it is fun making stuff yourself. Your home made ones might be a bit higher quality then the commercial ones?

[Bernie Daniel]

Yeah, I see those at the store all the time. But nowadays, I *never* go to the store when I can point & click. I have Amazon prime,
and get free two-day shipping on a lot of stuff. Of course, they build it into the price somehow, but it's still pretty cheap. I found
packages of six-inch long rods that I don't even have to cut!

My situation right now, is - it's *hard* for me to get out of the house. Because I have these two 12-month-old babies that
I take care of. Mommy leaves for work at 0500, and I have the duty until 3:00 in the afternoon or so.

WRT cutting them with a hacksaw - I have a little benchtop abrasive cutoff saw that makes cutting that stuff absolutely trivial.
Just clamp it, push the button, pull the handle.

Thanks for the good words, Jeff!

Questions/Comments. Do you need to be able to adjust both ends of the spool clamp? Could you just use a 1/4" X 6" machine bolt, two padded spools, and a single nut a washer on the top? What about a lighter weight bolt 1/4" di. bolt is a lot of mass?

2) I'm totally abandoning the idea of buying that deep throat calipers from Harbor Freight -- those neat ideas on a thickness jig with a dial gauge are the obvious way to go for sure. When I saw the thread I remembered in right away and noticed that I had commented on it even. Sheeesh! Very short term memory.

Here is a video of a guy who built one along the exact same lines!

[Bernie Daniel]

FWIW, the second mandolin I built (almost 10 years ago) was from one of these kits. Once I got all of the tool marks out of the plates and checked the thickness of the them they were at or less than the target thicknesses given in the first Siminoff book. I do not know if they are all that way or not. That is why you need the caliper. ....

Thanks for that useful information -- I kind of suspected that might be the case. They have to make all those tops and backs to SOME thickness anyway why not target the right specs?

Most amateur builders probably will not do any carving on them so if they want them to sound decent and not get a bad rap the closer they are to "right" specs the better for the reputation of the company?

[Pribar]

Questions/Comments. Do you need to be able to adjust both ends of the spool clamp? Could you just use a 1/4" X 6" machine bolt, two padded spools, and a single nut a washer on the top? What about a lighter weight bolt 1/4" di. bolt is a lot of mass?

Nope, doesn't matter a bit some of mine have wingnuts on both ends, some just on one side, heck most of mine vary in thickness and diameter, it all depended on what I had in the scrap drawer when I needed new ones and what I was working on at the time diameter wise.