Meguiar's #10, #17, and PlastX all contain silicone!?

[westsideryan]

A few years back I was looking for a decent cleaner and polish for a some instruments of mine that had nitro finishes. An acquaintance of mine told me that he used Meguiar's #10 and #17 and that they were silicone free and would not harm the finish. Well I just ran out of #10 and called Meguirs because I wanted to get some more to try and remove some clouding on my teens Gibson A. Because I was having problems finding it locally I gave Meguiars a call. A gentleman asked how I liked the products and I told him what I was using it for and that it worked great. He then asked if I was aware that the two products contain silicone? I couldn't believe it! He even went to double check. He said that almost all of their product do, but told me that #7 and #34 do not (I am not familiar with either of those). I did a search on here to try and find something else and I noticed that many people seem to use Meguiars products so I thought that I'd post what I was just told. I am assuming the information that I received is correct. Has anyone else looked into this at all?

-Ryan

[sunburst]

I called Meguiars' 800 number when I was trying to find a product for fine polishing that did not contain silicone. It is impossible to find any useful information on the labels of the products!
The tech told me that #7 is a "pure polish" (meaning a polish and nothing else) and that it contains no silicone, so that agrees with your info. (Meguiars #7 is also sold as "step two of a three step system" at auto parts stores, and probably re-branded as several other products too.)
I also called McFadden's 800 number once when I was trying to diagnose a finish problem and the tech told me that nearly all of their products (including the stringed instrument lacquer) contain some silicone!

When we get right down to it, keeping our instruments clean is usually all that is needed. An occasional rub with a soft, clean cloth and a less often cleaning with water in the form of a damp, clean, soft cloth usually takes care of the finish. A little soap once in a long while can help too. We don't need to polish our instruments regularly, so avoiding silicons can be a simple as not using polishing products needlessly.

[westsideryan]

I am a little confused. The Meguiar's website states that #10 is body shop safe which I would guess means silicone free?

On another note: I was also told by a luthier that does nitro finish repairs that a little bit of silicone isn't that big of a deal. When he does a finish repair he adds a little bit of something (I don't remember what) that combats fish eyes and such. He said that just because you didn't use silicone doesn't mean that the previous owner of the instrument or the "tech" at shop that set up your instrument last didn't use a product containing silicone.

[Dale Ludewig]

I can't speak for the Meguiar's products specifically. But I have about 40 years in the furniture/instrument field with a lot of refinishing projects. If you're trying to spray over a surface that has silicone contamination with nitro, you add "fish eye eliminator" to the lacquer. It's my understanding that you are just adding silicone to the lacquer so that the surface and the lacquer are not repelling each other. I forget the scientific name for it right now. A few months back, I put this to the test. My local supplier of "fish eye eliminator" didn't have any; in fact wasn't carrying it anymore. I went to my hardware store and bought a spray can of what was said to be pure silicone. I sprayed an amount into a cup equal to about what the commercial product recommended, and the mixed it into my lacquer and mixed it in thoroughly. Result: fish eye was gone. For a fraction of the price of the bottled product. But! An important thing to realize: once you've got silicone in your spray equipment, you have to add a little silicone into everything you spray afterwards unless you completely clean the equipment. Otherwise, there will be silicone contamination everywhere and lacquer you spray without the silicone addition will have problems with what you've sprayed before. It can be a viscous nightmare (there's the scientific word!).

With a spray gun, this isn't a big deal. If you've got a pressure pot with long lines running to the gun itself, you're pretty much bought into it forever on that setup.

Auto paint places to sell products like Gone and so forth that will do a decent job of removing silicone contamination on a surface. But they can also harm a delicate finish. An alternative solution is to spray a light coat of shellac or two over the surface before spraying the nitro. That's a PITA but does a pretty good job. Or a combination of the above.

[sunburst]

...once you've got silicone in your spray equipment, you have to add a little silicone into everything you spray afterwards unless you completely clean the equipment. Otherwise, there will be silicone contamination everywhere and lacquer you spray without the silicone addition will have problems with what you've sprayed before. It can be a viscous nightmare...

That is something I was told over and over by those who should know, but when I was talking to the tec at McFadden (the one who told me that nearly all their products have a little silicone in them) I told him that I had bought a (Harbor Freight) dedicated gun for spraying finish with fish eye eliminator. That's when he said their products all have some silicone, and he also said all I had to do was rinse my equipment with lacquer thinner and it would be fine.
So, after using my Harbor Freight gun to spray lacquer with fish eye eliminator, I rinsed it well with thinner. Next time I had lacquer to spray, I tried using the same gun with no fish eye eliminator and all went just fine. No problems, no fish eyes, no apparent silicone residue. From that experience, I gather than the well known "fact" that silicone (fish eye eliminator) will permanently contaminate spray equipment and ruin your life, your dog will run away, your shop will burn, and all sorts of horrendous things will result, is an exaggeration if not completely false.

[westsideryan]

That is something I was told over and over by those who should know, but when I was talking to the tec at McFadden (the one who told me that nearly all their products have a little silicone in them) I told him that I had bought a (Harbor Freight) dedicated gun for spraying finish with fish eye eliminator. That's when he said their products all have some silicone, and he also said all I had to do was rinse my equipment with lacquer thinner and it would be fine.
So, after using my Harbor Freight gun to spray lacquer with fish eye eliminator, I rinsed it well with thinner. Next time I had lacquer to spray, I tried using the same gun with no fish eye eliminator and all went just fine. No problems, no fish eyes, no apparent silicone residue. From that experience, I gather than the well known "fact" that silicone (fish eye eliminator) will permanently contaminate spray equipment and ruin your life, your dog will run away, your shop will burn, and all sorts of horrendous things will result, is an exaggeration if not completely false.

I am far from an expert, but from what I remember from chemistry class (which was years ago!) silicone has four bonding electrons which allow it to easily create strong bonds with a plethora of different compounds, and once silicone bonds with something it is nearly impossible to get rid of it all.

I also got to thinking that I made a "key crack" in the side of a Martin 0 that I had been applying Meguiars to for years. I had the crack repaired and the nitro finish drop filled. If you didn't see the cleats on the inside of the guitar you would have never known that it was ever cracked. So I just went out and purchased some more Meguiars!

[Dale Ludewig]

John- what you said/relayed might be true! I was only repeating what I was told. Frankly, I've been a little lax on making sure I put a little silicone into every pot & line once I've polluted it. And I frequently run just lacquer thinner through the lines just to clean the junk out, not even thinking about the silicone. And I've rarely had a problem. So, as you said, much of these things like silicone contamination may be exaggerations. My dog has not yet run away. Shop's not burning right now to my knowledge. Wife is sitting near by. All is well.

[Marty Jacobson]

I've always used Meguiar's #2 Fine Cut Cleaner, then #9 Swirl Remover 2.0, then #7 Show Car Glaze. As I understand from the old guys who recommended them to me, and confirmed by Meguiar's site, those three have no silicone and are designed for use on lacquer.
This thread has a chart indicating which Meguiar's products are "paintable", meaning no silicone, or essentially no silicone.
http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums...op-Safe-or-Not

I only use these on repairs these days. On my own instruments, it's all Menzerna compounds. I wash the wax and buffing oil off with naptha or mineral spirits afterwards.

[westsideryan]

I've always used Meguiar's #2 Fine Cut Cleaner, then #9 Swirl Remover 2.0, then #7 Show Car Glaze. As I understand from the old guys who recommended them to me, and confirmed by Meguiar's site, those three have no silicone and are designed for use on lacquer.
This thread has a chart indicating which Meguiar's products are "paintable", meaning no silicone, or essentially no silicone.
http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums...op-Safe-or-Not

I only use these on repairs these days. On my own instruments, it's all Menzerna compounds. I wash the wax and buffing oil off with naptha or mineral spirits afterwards.

According to that list the #10 and #17 would be silicone free. So maybe the guy at Meguiars give me bad info?

[John Arnold]

I use 3M Imperial Hand Glaze for hand polishing, and Finesse-It II for buffing with a wheel.
I have full confidence in the claim of no silicone with 3M products.

[Ivan Kelsall]

OK - I've read many threads on here re.'Silicones'' in polishes,so what's the big issue ? - i ask because i don't know. I have read that using a silicone based polish to polish instruments makes it more difficult to re-finish them if necessary,but most folk won't ever need to have that done. Even so,i'd expect the existing finish to be well rubbed down to remove the top finish including the 'silly cones' prior to re-finishing. Maybe my take on this is simplistic,but really,what is the problem with sillicones in a polish ???. I used to use a silicone based furniture spray polish on my instruments (sprayed onto a cloth, NOT the instruments),but i found that a Beezwax cream polish worked better, so now i use that,
Ivan

[Pete Jenner]

I've gone ahead and use the Mother's micro-polishing glaze and so far I'm happy I did. It produces a glorious shine. I used the 4 finest micro mesh pads first.

[Jim Adwell]

OK - I've read many threads on here re.'Silicones'' in polishes,so what's the big issue ?

Silicones stick to some things, like glass, but don't stick to other things, like wet lacquer, which tends to flow away from the places that have a bit of silicone (or other slippery things, like oil, for instance) on them, leaving a hole in the newly applied finish, which we call a fish-eye. The fish-eye eliminator stuff (which is silicone itself, go figure) lowers the surface tension of the lacquer enough to keep it from flowing away from the silicone or other slippery things on the surface being finished.

[sunburst]

Finishes are not perfect. Especially at glue joints and other places where wood movement occurs, fingerboards, nut slots, places where finishes crack or otherwise fail, polishes can get under finishes and into the wood. If the finish fails at a glue joint, and the glue joint fails, and if the user uses a silicone product, it can become nearly impossible to re-glue the open joint. There are few finishes on older instrument with no pores, checks, or other damage or degradation, so heavy use of silicone polishes introduces silicone into the wood where it is virtually impossible to remove and where it can cause serious problems when repairs are needed.

As for the "big issue", for this thread it has more to do with the difficulty in learning what products contain what. Maybe our dog doesn't run away if we use a polish containing silicone, but many of us want to avoid silicone, and if we want to avoid silicone products, why do manufacturers make it so hard to determine which products do and which products don't contain silicone?

[Pete Jenner]

...why do manufacturers make it so hard to determine which products do and which products don't contain silicone?

Yes they guard their secrets very closely but as you and I have both found out, sometimes you just have to ask.

[Dave Cohen]

Finishes are not perfect. Especially at glue joints and other places where wood movement occurs, fingerboards, nut slots, places where finishes crack or otherwise fail, polishes can get under finishes and into the wood. If the finish fails at a glue joint, and the glue joint fails, and if the user uses a silicone product, it can become nearly impossible to re-glue the open joint. There are few finishes on older instrument with no pores, checks, or other damage or degradation, so heavy use of silicone polishes introduces silicone into the wood where it is virtually impossible to remove and where it can cause serious problems when repairs are needed.

As for the "big issue", for this thread it has more to do with the difficulty in learning what products contain what. Maybe our dog doesn't run away if we use a polish containing silicone, but many of us want to avoid silicone, and if we want to avoid silicone products, why do manufacturers make it so hard to determine which products do and which products don't contain silicone?

Manufacturers don't disclose formulations & etc., because they consider them proprietary. In some cases, they carry that to extremes, and it may take regulation or even legal measures to pry safety information out of them. In other cases, there is some justification for the practice. Industrial espionage from foreign competitors is a serious problem, and in some of those cases, their governments have little in the way of barriers to the practice.

[sliebers]

I can't say for certain which Meguiar's products have silicone or not. I use #9 a lot as well as the Novus #2 plastic polish on nitro finish.
What I can tell you is I recently had to do some touch up and respray a guitar neck that was otherwise finished and polished out with #9 and then the Novus. I scuff sanded the neck lightly with 600 grit wet/dry paper and cleaned the surface with naphtha. I did not use any fish eye or other additives to my lacquer (seagrave) and there were no problems with adhesion.
That tells me there may not be any silicone in those products, or the scuff sand and naptha took out whatever silicone was present.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Thanks for the point regarding re-glueing a 'silicone infested' joint John. I understand that point absolutely - however,when i used to use a silicone polish on my mandolins,it was always sprayed onto a cloth first,wiped on & wiped off quickly. I suppose that it's possible (although unlikely) that any polish got into any joints,as both the mandolins on which i used it are pretty new(ish). On much older instruments with joints more open (to an extent),i'd go with your advice,
Ivan