Lloyd Loar Mandolin

[Tom Smart]

According to Al Lakey who ran a paint store here until his death Benjamin Moore "quick drying" was what" those guys used to come in for" I have a label around here somewhere.
I am biased toward Bill too, known him since I was a pup! If a Loar reproduction period proper is what you want, Mr. Halsey will fill the need. Probably the last mandolin you will need. I have had the distinct pleasure of seeing most of his builds, played his prototype for six months, very enjoyable treat!
If you want to kill MAS in one go, buy a Halsey!
I think Tom F5Loar will bear out the accuracy with Bill's work.

Here's a thread on early Gibson varnishes. Bill Halsey discusses Al Lakey and Benjamin Moore varnish at some length in post #4:

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ibson-Finishes

[Ken Waltham]

In reality, the new MM's are nothing like a Loar signed F5. They miss the mark in multiple areas. And, Charlie was a great marketer, so, take it with a grain of salt. Bill Halsey would be the man.

If I am not mistaken Charlie Derrington said that the Master Models that were being built during his stay at Gibson were as close to an original Loar as could be, he said his wife MRI`ed his Loar and they built the MM to those specs, of course as we all know, according to many posts on here, is that not all Loars were the same....Maybe the OP don`t want to spend that kind of money for a mandolin though....

I have compared a custom made mandolin that I own with two Loars and except for the inlays, mine being a fern, its hard to tell them apart, sound is different though, not bad but just different, mine is lacquer finished as opposed to varnish on the originals....Mine was made by Mack Barnes in Dale City Va.and I have lost contact with him over the years.....Probably a lot of Loar look alikes floating around out there and a builder that has been around for a while could probably fill the bill for the OP if he is looking for one that looks like a Loar....

Willie

[Frank Ford]

From the Welsh language which was denied many vowels from their oppressors.

Are you saying the Welsh were consonant-stipated? Maybe they needed a good vowel movement. . .

[Timbofood]

Frank, now I'm feeling all bound up!

[Timbofood]

Bill and I both knew Al. I worked in a different art store but, I had some dealing with him, the man would have smoked chains if he could light them!
Thanks Tom, I think that label is the one which ended up on my case!
I remember that thread, thanks for refreshing my memory.

[Frank Ford]

. . .I want it as close to a Lloyd Loar as possible. . .

I think the first thing you need to do is to define your terms. What will be the limiting factor in getting "as close as possible?" Clearly money is the most important, or you'd simply drop a couple hundred grand on the real thing.

So, I'd say it's important to get those factors in hand - what is your budget and how will you define "close?" Which factors are most important - tone? materials? playability? appearance? finish? authentic replication? - that kind of thing. Is it important to be part of the building process or should you look for one already built (new, used) that you can play before committing?

In partial answer your technical question - as far as I know, spray finishing didn't come into general use until just after Loar left Gibson.

[testore]

Frank, I've seen photos from Mirecourt France violin factories circa 1900 and they were using a spray application. Is it possible that Gibson had one in place before Loar?

[Dave Greenspoon]

Another great builder using Loar specs is Olin Davis; his Rattlesnake mandolins are consistently incredible.
http://www.rattlesnakemandolins.com/

[JFDilmando]

I think many of the Loar guys around here has expressed amazement about the Loar spec mandolins that Jamie Wiens has made. I know there is a can of worms just waiting be opened....but if you can find one of his on the market, you'd be as close to a copy as possible....right down to the dyed peg head overlay.

[Austin Bob]

Are you saying the Welsh were consonant-stipated? Maybe they needed a good vowel movement. . .

They could probably work that out with a pencil.

[AlanN]

Are you saying the Welsh were consonant-stipated? Maybe they needed a good vowel movement. . .

...or a good : cleaning

[Timbofood]

John, you bring up a good point but, Jamie's was a reproduction of a specific Loar as are several other builders Loar specific. What I see in Bills work is almost an amalgamation of several numbers, and he strives for that(what I called and, he concurred laughingly) "Casual perfection" which comes from the need to maintain production rates and meet schedules. I prefer that nomenclature over the more sterile "Within spec". That's all MY take, I am not speaking for Bill in any way, shape or form. Unless he agrees with me, of course

[HoGo]

I think the first thing you need to do is to define your terms. What will be the limiting factor in getting "as close as possible?" Clearly money is the most important, or you'd simply drop a couple hundred grand on the real thing.

So, I'd say it's important to get those factors in hand - what is your budget and how will you define "close?" Which factors are most important - tone? materials? playability? appearance? finish? authentic replication? - that kind of thing. Is it important to be part of the building process or should you look for one already built (new, used) that you can play before committing?

Agree here 100%. Some folks would call Eastman a "Loar copy".
If you want REALLY as close as possible, than Bill Halsey and trust me I am EXTREMELY picky. I've known Bill for few years and he is heck of a nice and wise guy in addition to being such good craftsperson. I think Mike Kemnitzer could pull really convincing copy of Loar but I think he is not in that market.
If your "close" is somewhat more loose you can go with Wiens, and then few notches lower there is Gibson MM and whole bunch of makers who advertise they are building "exactly" to Loar specs yet few Loar nedrs here on the cafe can usually find dozen deviations from original just by looking at picture of the mandolin.

[ngmandolinman]

Thanks for replies guys! Thinks for all of the builder recommendations. I've already got everything picked out pretty much now!

[Timbofood]

Adrian, your point about even an Eastman being a copy speaks volumes of how people have started to perceive a Loar. In truth all these makers from all around the world are making more Loar "Tribute" mandolins, even my low brow Alvarez is a tribute instrument.
Accurate, careful, thoughtful builders are out there too. Obviously, we have named several on this thread. There are builders who make beautiful F-5s no question about it, are they Loar accurate? Not always and, that's not all bad. Artistic representation is a fine form of tribute. But, if you want "THE look" that's something else. Nuff said.
It would take me a lot longer than the length of this thread to make this kind of decision. If my ship comes in and it not been torpedoed and I am not waiting at the airport, I will have Bill make me a treasure. I have been lusting after one since 1978!
Glad OP found what he wants, post pix when you get it, please?

[Timbofood]

Why is it that I feel a bit "set up"?
What appears to be an initial query about a considerable investment is so cleanly dispatched in 40 posts?
Good grief, some folks go on for weeks about "should I buy a Kentucky or ------?"
I feel like I've been part of a "Big hat, No cattle" con, I hope I am wrong.

[Michael Lewis]

Better start with a set of Adrian's (HoGo) F5 plans, available from Elderly Instruments last I knew. These pages hold more information than you can likely put into a mandolin, but it all came from one 1920s Gibson signed by Lloyd.

[Hendrik Ahrend]

Better start with a set of Adrian's (HoGo) F5 plans, available from Elderly Instruments last I knew. These pages hold more information than you can likely put into a mandolin, but it all came from one 1920s Gibson signed by Lloyd.

Moreover, Adrian himself is a (part time) maker himself, with an uncanny eye for details. I recently saw a great sounding example of his "Hogan" mandolins that is very close to Loar specs, never mind European woods and black tuner buttons. But, as Michael points out, his plans are very accurate. And he seems (or should be able) to stick to them rather closely.

How close are Gary Vessel's Loar copies these days? I'm sure his web site is not up to date on those.

[Jim Garber]

Thanks for replies guys! Thinks for all of the builder recommendations. I've already got everything picked out pretty much now!

So, I guess we are all done... Any more questions?

[JeffD]

It seems that most F5s being made today are going for the "Loar sound". Nobody is going for a "unique sound unprecedented in the history of f hole mandolins". The Loar is the Stradivarius to many folks, the ever approachable never achievable, ineffable Loar sound.

To pick one maker would imply that others are not aiming for the same sonic target, whereas they all are, though with varying degrees of success.

The Loar looks and measurements, well that is different.

[Timbofood]

I think you make a good point Jeff, this was uncharted territory in '23! Now, it's become reverse engineering. We have no record of the sound of what these decidedly innovative marvels of their day when " just kids."
They are, examined, measured, X-Rayed, MRI'd, examined in almost any manner possible but, we will never know what they sounded like the day they were built, signed, labeled, shipped or delivered. We can only be fascinated by what we see and hear now.
I had an artist girlfriend, years ago, she painted, I made music.... We sat up late one night and I said to her." The big difference in our "art forms" is yours will be here on paper and, with care, visible for many years to come. Mine, lost in an instant, never to be really reclaimed."
Funny how things stick in memory.
WWLT?
What Would Lloyd Think?
He bestowed an unparalleled concept and now, it is "interpreted" so widely. I do wonder what he thinks!

One late night conversation with Bill, my wife, his wife...." Excellence can be achieved, perfection only striven for."

[Michael Lewis]

Remember that there is some significant variation in the mandolins signed by Lloyd Loar. Some physical details like the variation in the recurve of the plates, shapes of parts like the button of the heel on the back, scrolls, depth of bodies, selection of materials, etc. Granted, many of these are on the subtle side but not all of them. And these mandolins don't all sound the same.

[houseworker]

llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysilio gogogoch.co.uk --website for a town in Wales -- the longest town name and URL in the the UK.

Llanfairpwllgwyngyll (as it's more correctly known) isn't a town, it's a village.

[RustyPickup]

Look to Vessel.

http://vesselmandolins.blogspot.com/

Steve

Yes, that Monroe copy on Gary Vessel's site sounds VERY close to a Loar. I've heard it played next to two Loars and a '26 Fern, and you'd be hard-pressed to tell any difference. Of course, it was being played by world-class players, so that helps a bit, I suppose ...