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Thread: Did she really make this?

  1. #1
    Registered User Cary Fagan's Avatar
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    Default Did she really make this?

    Here's a supposedly hand-made mandolin for sale that is clearly built from a Saga or IV kit. This isn't the first time I've seen a kit build passed off as something else. Anyone familiar with these kids (I've built one) will recognize it. I don't mean any ill-will towards the seller-builder but I do think that if it's from a kit, the seller ought to say so.


    http://www.ebay.ca/itm/New-Clarinda-...item48712c4480
    Cary Fagan

  2. #2
    Registered User Timbofood's Avatar
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    Default Re: Did she really make this?

    Kit or not, seller claims they made it. It's not my particular way of selling something, I don't see anything deceptive there. Anyway, I am not going to buy it.
    Timothy F. Lewis
    "If brains was lard, that boy couldn't grease a very big skillet" J.D. Clampett

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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Did she really make this?

    Many instrument builders buy parts such as backs and sides from Siminoff and Stewmac as well as others. I have a hard time faulting her for that. With that said that kit doesn't look like it came out that well. I've been watching cafe members pop those out for years that looked more professional.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
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    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
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  5. #4

    Default Re: Did she really make this?

    She is definitely walking a fine line. She doesn't mention it was from a kit, which makes ya think she did more hand-crafting than she probably did. She says she made the top out of solid Sitka spruce, which sounds like she took it down from a larger board, rather than a kit. Then again, we don't expect her to have cut the tree down, do we? Like Mike says, many builders get their wood from suppliers, so? Of course, a totally handmade USA mandolin for $500? Let the buyer beware! (might be a banjo killer, who knows?)

  6. #5

    Default Re: Did she really make this?

    There is an old Italian tailor who has a shop near where I worked a few years ago. He is probably in his 80's and learned the trade as a boy in Italy, starting with cutting fabric. And, if you have him make you a suit, he measures you, cuts and sews the fabric himself from start to finish--totally hand made. However, in his shop he also has mens dress shirts on his shelves, that are very nice (and expensive). I asked him if he made shirts, he said, "No, I order them from Mexico!" Of course, he puts his label in them, so.....

  7. #6
    Registered User jclover's Avatar
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    Default Re: Did she really make this?

    "Return Policy: ...all sales are final."

    No thanks.
    -Jim

  8. #7

    Default Re: Did she really make this?

    14 day money back or item exchange, buyer pays return shipping

  9. #8
    Registered User jclover's Avatar
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    Default Re: Did she really make this?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Newton View Post
    14 day money back or item exchange, buyer pays return shipping
    I noticed that, but when they tack on "all sales final" too, then it seems they are trying to have it both ways. I like things clear, to me, this is not. Maybe this is a standard ebay thing though, I dont shop there.
    -Jim

  10. #9
    I may be old but I'm ugly billhay4's Avatar
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    Default Re: Did she really make this?

    Interesting thing is that she can't even buy the kit and parts for this. Unless she's buying them in bulk. I suspect it's not a kit from one of these sources at all.
    Bill
    IM(NS)HO

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    Default Re: Did she really make this?

    Roger Borys sold laminate plates to Jimmy D'Aquisto. Does that mean D'Aquisto guitars weren't "handmade?"
    PJ Doland
    1923 Gibson Snakehead A

  12. #11

    Default Re: Did she really make this?

    Quality of build aside, I don't think she is obligated to say it was built from a kit. Do you ask if every mando you are considering buying was made from a kit? I don't. But of course you, as an educated buyer, know that in this case it is a kit mando. So you are a bit better informed than the average buyer. But I really don't think she is being deceptive in her description.

  13. #12
    Registered User Cary Fagan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Did she really make this?

    Interesting variety of opinions. I think there's a difference between buying some parts or plates and a kit. I myself never tell people I built my mandolin. I always say I built it from a kit. I mean, 2/3 of the work was already done. If you look at the shape of the headstock, cut down from the kit shape, at the way the fretboard extension is attached to the top, at the volute and the neck shape, you can see it's from the kit. And if you know anything about them, you know about their wood quality, etc. I just think being above board is a good thing. Especially when you make rather extravagant claims about the quality of the instrument. Other people have sold kit builds, saying so, and that just makes sense to me. That being said, I just thought it was of passing interest; not trying to make a big thing of it.
    Cary Fagan

  14. #13
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Did she really make this?

    Quote Originally Posted by billhay4 View Post
    Interesting thing is that she can't even buy the kit and parts for this. Unless she's buying them in bulk. I suspect it's not a kit from one of these sources at all. Bill
    Actually Bill, she can. That's a Saga kit that sells retail for $114.00 with everything except the glue and the stain and if she's a Saga dealer then she's buying it wholesale. I will note she changed the tailpiece.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
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  15. #14
    Scroll Lock Austin Bob's Avatar
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    Default Re: Did she really make this?

    I looked up the definition of the word make, and it shows the following:

    1. form (something) by putting parts together or combining substances; construct; create.

    So yeah, since she put the parts together, she did make it. Should she have disclosed it came from a kit? I probably would have, but it's her decision. Buyer beware.
    A quarter tone flat and a half a beat behind.

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  17. #15
    Registered User Cary Fagan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Did she really make this?

    Just to continue for the fun of it (because I don't think this is too serious), read the description and then remember it's a kit and see if it feels right or accurate to you. For example "The back, neck, and sides I made out of figured maple..." In fact, she didn't make the neck, Saga did. She just attached it to the body and shaped the top of the headstock. And she didn't make the sides either, they were cut, bent, and attached to the top.

    By the way, those are the same cheap tuners that came with my Saga kit. (They work ok.)
    Cary Fagan

  18. #16
    I may be old but I'm ugly billhay4's Avatar
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    Default Re: Did she really make this?

    I was speaking of Stew-Mac and Siminoff.
    Bill
    IM(NS)HO

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    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Did she really make this?

    Quote Originally Posted by bart mcneil View Post
    Quality of build aside, I don't think she is obligated to say it was built from a kit. Do you ask if every mando you are considering buying was made from a kit? I don't. But of course you, as an educated buyer, know that in this case it is a kit mando. So you are a bit better informed than the average buyer. But I really don't think she is being deceptive in her description.
    Quite a low threshold of truthiness proposed (or forgiven) here. Caveat emptor is a warning, not an ethic.

    Lying by omission.

    Mick
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  20. #18

    Default Re: Did she really make this?

    "Quite a low threshold of truthiness proposed (or forgiven) here. Caveat emptor is a warning, not an ethic.
    Lying by omission."

    We are all capable of fudging the truth a bit to make a sale or to make our product more accessible to the buyer. Using lesser quality wood and covering the defects with paint is one good example used by Gibson as well as other manufacturers and builders. Does a builder have to state that his tailpiece and tuner and bridge are off the shelf from suppliers? Historically many factories used necks supplied by other factories and put their own label on them. Many brands of mando were never manufactured by the company on the label but bought wholesale and relabeled. To pick on this young woman for her sin is to excuse major manufacturers, builders, and retailers who commit the same crime every day to the tune of many thousands of dollars.

    So, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.".
    Last edited by bart mcneil; Oct-23-2014 at 8:33pm. Reason: truth

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  22. #19
    Registered User Cary Fagan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Did she really make this?

    well, one last post from me. I think if the seller just said this was an all solid wood instrument, hand-graduated top and back, hand-carved tone bars, it wouldn't have raised a red flag for me. But she implies something quite different, that this is a luthier hand-built instrument. However, I'll say again I don't think it's that serious a misstatement. I just prefer more straightforward dealing.
    Cary Fagan

  23. #20
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Did she really make this?

    Seller talks the talk of a luthier -- but shows the skills of a home hobbyist. And no one who knows anything about small-builder instruments would believe that a luthier could do all that she claims to have done, and sell the finished product for less than $500.

    I'd be willing, under certain circumstances, to pay a skilled person $350 to assemble and finish my $150 Saga kit. And if the seller had represented the mandolin as a well-completed kit instrument, the price wouldn't be unreasonable -- all-solid-wood, top and back carved and graduated by hand, tailpiece upgrade, good strings and set-up.

    But it's being represented as a product of the luthier's art, and the marginal disingenuousness involved tends to arouse suspicion.
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  24. #21
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Did she really make this?

    We're into a line drawing exercise again; where do we draw the line between hand made and assembled from a kit? Everybody has a different answer. Many folks who start out building with kit instruments are rightly proud of them when they're done, and consider them to be something they built, put their name on them, give them serial numbers etc..
    I've only built one kit. I put my name in the "hat" to be potentially drawn to win a Martin guitar kit, and lo and behold they drew my name! That box of parts sat around for a while and I finally decided to go ahead and put it together. When I started, I looked it over and immediately started thinking about swapping out parts for ones that were better or more to my liking, avoiding some of the production compromises inherent in production parts... then I decided that I would build it straight from the box without swapping out parts (other than the bone nut and saddle I used, rather than the supplied micarta). This way, if anybody asks I can tell them what to expect from a well assembled Martin guitar kit. (BTW, it was a HD-28 kit, and the finished product was at least the equal of a Martin HD-28.)
    So, I did no design work and I did not select the materials. I made no important decisions about the build, they were all made by the folks at Martin who designed the guitar and assembled the parts for the kit. I didn't put my label in it, I didn't put my name on it, I didn't include it in my records, it has no serial number... basically, I don't consider it to be an instrument that I built, only a kit that I assembled. That probably puts me at one extreme when drawing the line between building and kit assembling, and there are those at the other extreme who would consider the kit I put together a full fledged build. It either incorrect? I think not.
    I do think there is an element of deception in the Ebay seller's description of the instrument, but that's just my opinion.

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  26. #22

    Default Re: Did she really make this?

    What you say is true and reasonable, but we are talking not about an experienced luthier but a young woman who put together a kit mando and is trying to sell it. What should the ad say? "Built by an incompetent first time mandolin kit builder. Please ignore mistakes and poor finish."? That would be an honest statement. But it will not help in her sale. Were we to require honesty among sellers and sales people half of them would be in jail.

    I would cut the woman some slack. In time she may turn out to be a fine luthier, but not just yet. In the mean time "Let the buyer beware".

  27. #23
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Did she really make this?

    Quote Originally Posted by billhay4 View Post
    I was speaking of Stew-Mac and Siminoff.
    Bill
    I assumed you meant that but this is clearly not either one of those and is the Saga kit from everything I see.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

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  29. #24
    Registered User mandolinstew's Avatar
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    Default Re: Did she really make this?

    looks like it was finished with shoe polish and a dirty rag without sanding

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  31. #25
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    Default Re: Did she really make this?

    She also says she likes to talk about mandolins and banjos so give her a call...She posted her phone number and you can ask her all of these questions and hopefully get some true answers, myself I don`t give a hoot...BUT I had a mandolin build from scratch (no Kit) for under 500 bucks and it is an F model and sounds great, it all depends on what the builder wants to charge for his/her labor...I know nothing about kits but have often wondered if I would like to try one, maybe one day....

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