Interesting observation on F style vs. A style

[terzinator]

I find that my KM1000 sounds brighter and projects more (F5) while my J Bovier A5 Special is mellower and fuller. The only difference is the wood sources as far as I can tell. They are equal in quality.

I might be alone in this, but I think of the KM1000 as a higher quality instrument than the Bovier A5, scroll notwithstanding.

If we were discussing A-styles, I'd argue that the KM900/950 (which I think of as the "A-style version" of the KM1000/1050) are higher up the food chain than the Bovier.

[John Adrihan]

I might be alone in this, but I think of the KM1000 as a higher quality instrument than the Bovier A5, scroll notwithstanding.

If we were discussing A-styles, I'd argue that the KM900/950 (which I think of as the "A-style version" of the KM1000/1050) are higher up the food chain than the Bovier.

No doubt.

[Petrus]

Well, kinda sorta. If you hold up an F-model or a two-point next to an A-model, you'll find in most cases that the protuberances -- scroll and points -- are added on to an A-style silhouette. This is different from guitar, where the pointed "Florentine" cutaway, or the more rounded "Venetian" cutaway, are subtracted from a non-cutaway guitar body. IMHO the points and scroll on mandolins that have them, are added for ornamentation, rather than subtracted for frets accessibilty.

You make some very good points in this post.

[Petrus]

BTW, the sort of "two point" mandolins I think I was referring to were the Rigel and Phoenix (etc.) style, where you have what look like two cutaways situated neckwards, not the ones with a point way down by the heel where you might use it to help keep it steady on your lap. (FWIW.) I think allenhopkins might have a point (ahem) though in noting that they are made by adding to the basic body style rather than cutting away, though I don't know the exact procedures that each luthier uses.



http://www.phoenixmandolins.com/

http://www.rigelinstruments.com/

[RB250]

I recently purchased a 1916 A-1 Gibson. Good price and great sound, and I can live will the repaired top cracks. I like the sustain and I play bluegrass. I have a 1918 A as well but this A-1 really spoke to me and it's louder. I also recently passed on an older Collins MT-2 and a Weber Beartooth. They weren't enough better than the Eastman 615 I've been playing (and some others) to warrant shelling out the big bucks. For now I'm a happy camper until that really special mando shows up. I hope it's not too expensive when it does.
RB250

[lflngpicker]

LBV... I agree right down the line with what you have stated. Same wood source and type, same build quality and bracing, would bring an undetectable difference. You said it best.

Your comparing two different builds though, sure the specs are all the same. but how thick are the tops, what about the bracing, how thick is that? etc etc. Not a fair comparison


If you took the same exact woods, and used the same exact specs for the top grad. and bracing etc. i dont think youd be able to detect the diff between an A and an F. Its pure a looks thing, and of course the f has the strap hanger. I like the looks of both, i wrap the strap under the fretboard so the strap hanger thing doesnt bother me. Theyre all great!



As a new owner of an Ellis A5 i can say this is so true . Only the Ellis F5 is about 11 grand

[allenhopkins]

Recall, as this thread meanders along, the OP's observation that almost all the mandolinists pictured in his bluegrass music book, were playing F-model mandolins. That observation holds true, regardless of what style any of us prefers.

The prevalence and "supremacy" of the F-model mandolin among bluegrass mandolinists is undeniable. There are reasons for it, of course; but even if we know, or think we know, that A-model mandolins are "just as good," even better from a price/value perspective, bluegrass mandolinists are irresistibly drawn to F-models. And builders respond to this preference by making more and more of them.

I have practically every generally-available mandolin silhouette somewhere in my basement music room. Don't prefer one over the others; when I recently had a 10-string built for me, I asked for a two-point -- 'cause I didn't have one. But looking at the mandolin universe, specificially the bluegrass mandolin universe, it's F-models here, there and everywhere. We can cite some really good bluegrass mandolin players who use A-models, but they're a real minority.

[Petrus]

Hmm, maybe there is a market for a mando with a detachable scroll that the player could quickly snap on or off depending on what type of music was being played. "We're doing a BG number next? Just give me a sec to snap on my scroll here ..."

[Willie Poole]

I like what Allen said... an F model in bluegrass is more of a status symbol than anything else, for years I played a Gibson A-50 model and just couldn`t wait to get my hands on my first F model.....

[terzinator]

I like what Allen said... an F model in bluegrass is more of a status symbol than anything else.

I think of it as less a "status symbol" as "just the way it's always been."

Like a bluegrass guitar is almost ALWAYS a dreadnought. A guitarist in a bluegrass band might find a great 000 or OM that does exactly what he wants it to do, and sound exactly the way he wants it to, but it's a rare thing to see something other than a dread in a bluegrass setting.

[bobrem]

I play an F but would have no trouble playing an A if it made me sound like Joe Walsh.
https://pegheadnation.com/instrument...el-3-mandolin/

[Beanzy]

Bluegrass has always been about putting on a show and presenting the right music with the right image.
People like me love to go against the accepted norms, just because it gets a reaction.
But when you're talking the generally accepted forms and norms those of Bluegrass definitely have the F5 type as the norm.
Just as well it's a big little world with loads of room for cussed types like me who won't conform.

[stevedenver]

I like what Allen said... an F model in bluegrass is more of a status symbol than anything else, for years I played a Gibson A-50 model and just couldn`t wait to get my hands on my first F model.....

funny me too, my old '35 A50, triburst and raised board.

I have noticed, that when I see pop and rock players with mandos, they are most often playing an A.

I don't if this is style, or, if as a secondary instrument to say, guitar, its simply an economic aspect. I have to say, there is something understated about an A, not unlike a great pair of jeans, comfortable and gets the job done. Or, if in fact an F says overalls and hillbilly to non BG types.

I have an affinity for the intricacy and ornate artisanal aspect of F's-having built instruments myself. I tend not to like ornate in my guitars.

I know how difficult F's are to get perfect in a build. No...simply to get to fit and be playable.....LOL.

I happen to love my Rigel A. Its like holding a cat in my lap, and, with its long scale, sounds really quite respectable.

[darylcrisp]

I had F styles for a short while, used the bottoms points for positioning when I played(seated), never could get a good position with an A style and I had too much tension in my body position while trying to do that. I ended up seeing this video:


and this one:



thought those two mandolins sounded great and I wanted one like them-did some research to find the models(base model MT with gloss top and ivoroid binding in top video, base model MT in bottom video) and went to work to develop some way to get me two points on the bottom side to help me rid the slippage issue I had with an A. Turns out the standard Tonegard worked perfect. The two bottom attachment prongs keep the A style from slipping around while I play seated. Not considering the additional plus of enhanced tone.

now I feel confident I can stick a Tonegard on an A style and it will position just right for me. There are some killer Manodlins in A style out there-and with what you save, you can add a little to that savings and in time get another A style with an oval hole(or F holes if you got an oval to start with).

[UsuallyPickin]

I have managed to acquire a good A and F style mandolin over the years. Same maker , same level of production and materials. Re-fretted and set up by the same luthier. The neck on the A model is slightly thinner than the F. Tonally they are very close. I truly enjoy the tone , touch and appearance of both instruments. I put a strap button on the A model on the down side of the heel so there is no balancing it on my leg problems. Is one better than the other ...... no I can't say so. Was one more expensive than the other . Oh yeah the F was more expensive than the A . ... by quite a bit. Be it popularity or extra hand work cost didn't matter when I found a mandolin I liked. That is, without selling the truck and the house. R/

[Mike Bromley]

I conclude that the points on an F-model are not decorations, but practical devices...the tail point in particular allows lap play without the instrument scooting away sternward over your thigh. The forward point serves this purpose to a lesser degree. Anyone know it this is true, design-wise?

[JeffD]

I find the "lap point" useful.

[Andy Alexander]

If you are concerned about sound, the A model will usually be a bigger bang for the buck. However, although the sound chambers are basically the same for both F and A models, I wonder if the extra mass created by the scroll and points might have some effect on the sound ?

[k0k0peli]

If you are concerned about sound, the A model will usually be a bigger bang for the buck. However, although the sound chambers are basically the same for both F and A models, I wonder if the extra mass created by the scroll and points might have some effect on the sound ?

And I wonder if any knockoffs (pro or amateur) leave those areas hollow and how that might affect the sound? And Gibson's trademark efforts?

[SincereCorgi]

I conclude that the points on an F-model are not decorations, but practical devices...

Yes, before I purchased an F-style I had to carry an awl with me and jab myself in the thigh.

[fredfrank]

I prefer the mandolins that have eight strings.

[Jeff Mando]

I think of it as less a "status symbol" as "just the way it's always been."

Like a bluegrass guitar is almost ALWAYS a dreadnought. A guitarist in a bluegrass band might find a great 000 or OM that does exactly what he wants it to do, and sound exactly the way he wants it to, but it's a rare thing to see something other than a dread in a bluegrass setting.

I would go so far as to say it is ALWAYS a Martin dreadought, to be more exact, a VINTAGE MARTIN D-28. You had to be really good to be taken seriously with a Gibson flattop--it just wasn't done. And they didn't have the right sound. Those early pictures of Doc Watson playing the Gibson with his family's band come to mind--of course, Doc Watson wasn't a Bluegrass artist in the traditional sense--more a combination of folk, country blues, country and traditional and some bluegrass. He never played in a traditional bluegrass band.

Things have really loosened up these days, in that regard. Of course, back then there were only "two" brands. Today there are countless choices.

[Petrus]

There were only two serious brands, Martin and Gibson, for pros ... and a bunch of mail order and mass produced stuff like Harmony, Kay, and their various iterations (often sold rebranded to different retailers, sort of like what Radio Shack used to do with electronics) which were cheap but not typically for pros. Today they have vintage collector cache, being solid wood and all, but I think they were the Rogue, Johnson, Dean, First Act (etc.) of their day.

[trevor]

Hi Ron,

I've just ordered another Ellis A, 6-8 months delivery so plenty of time to save up?