Interesting observation on F style vs. A style

[Bruce Cech]

I just received a copy of Parking Lot Pickers Songbook-Mandolin Edition. By the way, before I go on, I own an F style Mandolin and its simply because I like the design. Throughout the book there are several pictures with captions referring to the life and history of Bluegrass.

The interesting thing was the type of mandolin played through the years. The pictures showed John Duffy and Mike Seeger playing two point mandolins; There was only one picture with someone playing an A style but he was not identified. All the rest played F style; Dix Bruce, Frank Wakefield, David Grisman, Buck White, Ricky Skaggs, Ruth McClain, Sam Bush, Jim and Jess McReynolds, John Reischman, Lorraine Duisit, and Vern Williams. Bill Monroe was not pictured with an instrument but we know he is also on the F list.

My only wish is that in playing an F style it would make me sound as good as any one of these folks. But that's not the case--I sound the same no matter what style I play and many would think I sound better if I didn't play at all.

[allenhopkins]

1. The F-model mandolins were Gibson's best -- at least, their most expensive models. Pro players who wanted the "best" mandolin were likely to buy them. Not just bluegrass players -- remember, Gibson made F-model mandolins for 30+ years before there was any such thing as bluegrass. Gibson advertised widely, marketed aggressively. There were probably a thousand bowl-back, A-model, two-point et. al. mandolins manufactured for every Gibson F-model in the first half of the 20th century, but the F-model became the icon, especially among bluegrassers, largely because…

2. Bill Monroe played one. Had he played a different make or model, probably there wouldn't be the near-uniformity you describe. Monroe played an Epiphone briefly, but otherwise stuck to Gibson F-models, from his days working with brother Charlie, through his years leading the Blue Grass Boys.

3. So, manufacturers other than Gibson, aiming for a share of the mandolin market, started making F-models; not exclusively, but their top-end instruments were almost invariably F-models. Now factories in Asia churn out thousands of clones of the Gibson F-5 every year, from plywood cheapos to top-quality pro-level instruments. You could compare this to the world-wide acceptance of the Martin dreadnaught guitar as the "form" of steel-string acoustics, or the Fender Stratocaster and Gibson Les Paul as the templates for electric guitars.

I'd contend that in none of these other areas, however, has a single design become so dominant, as the F-model mandolin. From Chinese mass-producers to individual US luthiers, mandolin builders keep making F-models. Even those who venture into more experimental designs, often make features that recall the "scroll and points." It's an interesting idiosyncrasy of the instrument we all play.

[Astro]

I was never hooked on the Fmodel...until I got one.

With a small foot rest I can play more comfortably for longer--with or without a strap.

They just sit in your lap better.

[Mandoplumb]

One advantage of the F style is the longer raised fingerboard which seems to be almost necessary to bluegrass.To my knowledge this did not exist in any number on an A style till 15 years ago or so. I know the Griffin Loar but it was one of a kind.

[Teak]

Okay, so I guess that I'll be the one weighing in on the side of the A model.

For a given $$ amount, you will buy a much nicer mandolin in the A style than in the F style. In other words, to get the same sound from an F model, you would need to pay more.

There is a reason those scrolls are called the $1,000 strap peg.

[Joey Anchors]

I too am a big fan of A-styles. I really like the A shape for it's simplicity and "bare bones" feel.

To me it's the working man's mandolin

[Teak]

I was perusing some of the big brand name mandolin maker websites and found out that the $1,000 strap peg line is a thing of the past. One site had an F5 version priced at $9,000, and its A5 cousin priced at $5,000. Sheesh, $4,000 for a strap peg? Not in this lifetime. I actually find the F5 shape to be a bit ugly, and for an extra $4,000, I don't need ugly.

[Ron McMillan]

The A vs. F argument will go on forever, and never have any meaningfulness. People like what they like. I like bluegrass music, but I wouldn't be seen dead in a cowboy hat. I enjoy my F5 (copy) a lot, but my A4 (currently undergoing life-saving refurbishment/alterations after being delivered in a lamentable state by the builder) will soon be a great instrument again, and every bit as likely to be picked up as my F5 (or my customised mandocaster).

Fashion trends are powerful, and the Gibson F5 shape's popularity would never have lasted so long if the original Gibsons hadn't been so damn good - and if the many imitators hadn't managed to capture some of that appeal.

But for those who think an F5 is a 'must have', I simply point to Tim O'Brien.

[terzinator]

But for those who think an F5 is a 'must have', I simply point to Tim O'Brien.

Kym Warner and Joe Walsh, too.

I play an A-style because I can't afford an equivalent-quality F-style. Nobody I play with seems to really mind, though.

My bluegrass guitar has a slotted headstock, but nobody seems to mind that either.

[Mike Bunting]

Kym Warner and Joe Walsh, too.

I play an A-style because I can't afford an equivalent-quality F-style. Nobody I play with seems to really mind, though.

My bluegrass guitar has a slotted headstock, but nobody seems to mind that either.

And Buzz Busby and Red Rector and me!

[Petrus]

I too am a big fan of A-styles. I really like the A shape for it's simplicity and "bare bones" feel. To me it's the working man's mandolin

Yep, and it doesn't have a cool-looking feature that inadvertently makes it more difficult to hit the higher frets.

BTW, regarding two point mandos, on a guitar those "two points" are called cutaways. And they're exactly for the purpose noted above: hitting the higher frets.

And it seems a little inconsistent for all those good folks who champion the great "chop" provided by f-holes, while simultaneously holding in highest regard those early Gibsons ... which all had oval holes. (And also the scroll, granted.) Maybe one solution would be to make a mando with both an oval hole and f-holes, and provide removable covers so you could cover up either the f-holes or the oval hole depending on what sound you wanted at a given time.

All that said, anyone is entitled to like whatever style they like. I own several different styles.

[Ivan Kelsall]

It was always my goal to have a good "A" & an "F" style instument,something i achieved when i had my Weber "Fern" F & "Beartooth" A styles. Unfortunately the Beartooth had a warped neck & i traded it in for my Lebeda F style = 2 F styles. The recent aquisition of a 'used' Ellis "A" style has fulfilled my ambition once again - 'in spades' & darned great big ones at that. I'm too old to fork out big bucks for my 'ultimate' mandolin,an Ellis F5,but if the F5's can improve on the sound of an Ellis "A" style,then i'd say they'd be the finest mandolin on the planet 'for me'. I had a guy i know who works in a music store in Manchester UK, play my Ellis for me last Thursday. He's a Classical mandolinist,but even with the very powerful DR strings i have on it,he pulled some of the sweetest tones i've ever heard from a mandolin out of it. It sounded exquisite. I'd never be put off buying the 'lesser' "A" style of any good maker if you can't (or don't wish to) afford an "F" style,as it probably won't be a 'lesser' instrument at all,just a 'different shape',
Ivan

[Ron McMillan]

It is every player's right to prefer the looks of one style over another, but anyone who thinks, for example, that an Ellis A is a lesser instrument than an Ellis F, is simply fooling themselves. After my visit to TAMCO in Brighton in the summer, an Ellis A is w-a-y at the top of my dream list.

[Bertram Henze]

My only wish is that in playing an F style it would make me sound as good as any one of these folks. But that's not the case--I sound the same no matter what style I play...

That's the interesting observation. It demonstrates that money can't buy good playing - practise time can, but that's another magic currency:
- it's not convertible with other currencies
- it's lost if it's not spent

[Astro]

This isn't a mutually exclusive argument. Many of us like them both, and for different reasons. Same with ovals. Its all good.

[terzinator]

It IS all good.

Several tangential/disjointed/idiosyncratic thoughts:

I also like the simplicity/symmetry of A-styles.

A pro who can play whatever he/she wants may or may not feel the same. But I always figure that if a pro is playing an A, it's because they simply could not find a better sounding mandolin, whatever the shape.

I like very simple design in guitars. I'm way more a fan of Martin's 18 series (tortoise binding and simple inlays) vs their 45's (pearl and abalone everywhere).

If I were a better player, maybe I could justify an F-style, but I still think I'd rather put the money into the tone instead of the scroll.

All that said, I find two-points dead sexy.

[John Adrihan]

With the right A you can get $10,000 dollars worth of TONE for about $5000.

[f5joe]

I've never understood "why" there's even an issue on A vs. F. Play what you like, like what you play.

[Willie Poole]

My take on this is that Gibson was building F models and A models in the 50`s but in my opinion they weren`t using the same quality parts in the A`s as they were in the F`s so the A`s got the rep of being a lesser mandolin, which they were, more of the independent builders found the A`s a lot easier to make and they put as much attention into them as they did the F`s and so the A`s got a lot better report after that.....I have always been an F model owner and a few years ago I bought a Kentucky KM-900 because it was said to be a close copy of the one and only a model ever signed by Lloyd Loar and I will say that mandolin is as good as any F that I own right now...I compared to an Ellis A model about a year ago and it didn`t take a back seat to it and the young lady that owned the Ellis said she didn`t any difference and wondered why the huge difference in prices between the two...She even said she was thinking about selling the Ellis and buying a KM-900....

The area inside of each mandolin is just about the same and the area of the tops are just about the same and inside all of the scrolls and points are solid on most F models so why should there be any difference in sound between the two? As stated above this argument will go on forever as to which is better, I say everyone should own at least one of each and then they will be happy....

Willie

[lflngpicker]

I find that my KM1000 sounds brighter and projects more (F5) while my J Bovier A5 Special is mellower and fuller. The only difference is the wood sources as far as I can tell. They are equal in quality. The Kentucky costs more (1500, while the J Bovier is 750) and the Kentucky has silvered tuners and tailpiece along with more binding. They are both made very well and are great for import instruments. I couldn't want more, but I don't think an A is inferior to an F, having had several of each as I continued to buy and trade up. It truly is a matter of preference. God bless the mandolin player-- all of them!

[Denny Gies]

Why is this described as an "argument"? Play what you like and what sounds good to you................

[haggardphunk]

I prefer the look of the A to F. It looks goofy to me and I do not like the headstock on F models. Again, just too cartoony looking.

I also like 2 point mando's. They look radical. Never played one. I think the Eastman DGM1 has an awesome look to it.

[allenhopkins]

..on a guitar those "two points" are called cutaways. And they're exactly for the purpose noted above: hitting the higher frets.

Well, kinda sorta. If you hold up an F-model or a two-point next to an A-model, you'll find in most cases that the protuberances -- scroll and points -- are added on to an A-style silhouette. This is different from guitar, where the pointed "Florentine" cutaway, or the more rounded "Venetian" cutaway, are subtracted from a non-cutaway guitar body.

IMHO the points and scroll on mandolins that have them, are added for ornamentation, rather than subtracted for frets accessibilty.

And it seems a little inconsistent for all those good folks who champion the great "chop" provided by f-holes, while simultaneously holding in highest regard those early Gibsons ... which all had oval holes.

Well, the pre-Lloyd Loar Gibsons, A-models and F-models, all had oval holes. So F-2's and F-4's are not the standard bluegrass mandolins, Jimmy Martin's preference for the F-4 in his band aside.

You'd probably, as a general rule, get a better "chop" out of an old A-50 than an F-2, though "chop" quality has as much to do with the player's technique as the soundhole configuration of the mandolin -- again, IMHO.

[Mike Bunting]

With the right A you can get $10,000 dollars worth of TONE for about $5000.

That would be a Duff A5, only far greater than $10,000.

[LongBlackVeil]

I find that my KM1000 sounds brighter and projects more (F5) while my J Bovier A5 Special is mellower and fuller. The only difference is the wood sources as far as I can tell. They are equal in quality. The Kentucky costs more (1500, while the J Bovier is 750) and the Kentucky has silvered tuners and tailpiece along with more binding. They are both made very well and are great for import instruments. I couldn't want more, but I don't think an A is inferior to an F, having had several of each as I continued to buy and trade up. It truly is a matter of preference. God bless the mandolin player-- all of them!

Your comparing two different builds though, sure the specs are all the same. but how thick are the tops, what about the bracing, how thick is that? etc etc. Not a fair comparison


If you took the same exact woods, and used the same exact specs for the top grad. and bracing etc. i dont think youd be able to detect the diff between an A and an F. Its pure a looks thing, and of course the f has the strap hanger. I like the looks of both, i wrap the strap under the fretboard so the strap hanger thing doesnt bother me. Theyre all great!

With the right A you can get $10,000 dollars worth of TONE for about $5000.

As a new owner of an Ellis A5 i can say this is so true . Only the Ellis F5 is about 11 grand