Cheap/low-end mandolins...

[foldedpath]

Just saying, on guitars how about scalloping the braces, sanding from the inside for better bass response, different nut, saddle, etc.

On mando, a retro bridge, bone nut, heavier tailpiece, fret dressing, great overall setup.

On any stringed instrument, trying different gauges and composition of strings, to find what specific string fits the instrument, is worth the sometimes $50 bill.

I agree each instrument is a sound to itself, but just even a great setup can turn it into a whole new instrument.

A whole new instrument, but with the same basic voice it had before.

A good setup is one thing, and always worth doing. But I've always felt that when people go to extremes like scalloping braces and whatnot, they're really saying they don't like the instrument they have, and (usually) it's a case of not being able to afford a better one. I still maintain that the "voice" of an instrument is what it is, and that's the reason many musicians, over the span of a career or a lifetime, gradually end up with better grade instruments than they start with.

About cheapos, I played Ed King's (Lynyrd Skynrd) cheapo MIJ acoustic guitar while recording in Southern Jersey. Sounded like crap live and like gold when recorded.

Well, recording is a different animal. I can take a mandolin that sounds thin and uninteresting when played acoustically, and then use all the psychoacoustic tricks of recording -- subtle compression, EQ shaping, reverb, etc. -- to make it sound far better than it does in the room. And a higher quality mandolin will still sound even better when that same processing is used.

Sometimes the sound of a cheap instrument is exactly what's needed for arranging purposes in a recording, but I think this gets away from the topic at hand; the sound of a mandolin when played acoustically.

[High Lonesome Valley]

I've taken crap sounding mandolins, violins, guitars, of all type of provenances, values, etc. and intentionally modified them to sound like gold.

And you've never played Ed King's guitar. No eq, no filter, recorded flat. Solid gold.

You may want to read, specific to mandos, the various threads on simple bridge modifications that can release the full potential of both el cheapos and expensive instruments. And scalloping braces is a standard practice. Something you might want to look into further.

Why play a crap instrument of any value when you have the knowledge and wherewithal to modify it to its fullest potential (sans totally collectibles)?

[High Lonesome Valley]

But, then, I repeat myself.

[Jim]

The way an instrument sounds in the mix is what it's all about in a recording situation, Thus a low end mandolin or guitar with little complexity in its tone can really stand out nicely in a mix. With Welch and Rawlings the two guitars sound so very different that it's great, however I would not often go for a guitar that sounds like Daves if I was playing solo. But, like Duct Tape," It's almost just the thing sometimes."

[JeffD]

I know in the guitar/bass world there are player who love to tone and feel of some cheap/low-end instruments (Silvertone, Hofner Beatle bass, Danelectro, Kay) which got me thinking...

Are there mandolin players who perfer cheap/low-end mandos ($500 and less) to the Gibsons, Collings, Weber...ect?

The answer is definitely probably.

A trickier question is why. Three possibilities.

1. They can't afford the high-end instruments, so it's sour grapes.
2. Their ears legitimately can't tell the difference, so it's not worth it for them to pay more than a certain amount.
3. They can hear the difference but they legitimately prefer the sound of the lower-end mando.

Yes and there is a fourth reason.

4. They aren't seeking an arch top sound.

There are many flat top instruments that sound uncompromisingly good. They aren't arch tops, and they don't sound bluegrassy, but the bluegrass ideal is not the only ideal, not even the majority ideal.

I particularly like the Big Muddy mandolins. I recently purchased the M-11 and I have a ball with it. I also think the Flatiron Army Navy instruments are just great.

In addition to flat tops there are good quality turn of the last century bowlbacks to be had for below $400 in good shape that sound wonderful and as loud and cutting as you could want. Again not bluegrass, but certainly everything else.

There is a lot to love in these mandolins, not because they are less expensive, but because there is a lot to love in them. They are less expensive for many reasons, one of which is they are not participants in the "Loar" wannabee market.

[Bob Clark]

There are many flat top instruments that sound uncompromisingly good. They aren't arch tops, and they don't sound bluegrassy, but the bluegrass ideal is not the only ideal, not even the majority ideal.

I completely agree. I love the flat top sound and it works well for the music I play. I have a Crystal Forest army/navy flat top and a Gypsy nylon-strung flat top. I also have a high-end model Weber arch top A that is also a great instrument, but either of my flat tops gets more play time than the Weber. I really love these two flat tops and tend to pick them much more frequently than the arch top when I sit down to play.

Comparing the current new prices for these instruments, the two flats combined would cost less than the one Weber. They seem like a real deal to me.

[JeffD]

I have nothing against arch tops, far from it I own a few. But I think the flat tops are too quickly overlooked, and I have put lots (lots and lots) of hours behind a flat top with great fun and musicality.

The price paid for the mandolin is the least of it anyway.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/en...-on-a-mandolin

[jso]

They [flat-top/bowlback mandolins] are less expensive for many reasons, one of which is they are not participants in the "Loar" wannabee market.

Yes. Cuts out a lot of the angst expressed in this forum!

[jimmy powells]

I think that everyone grossly undervalues set up. There are lots of mandolins under $500 which, when set up really well in all aspects, do a great job for most people.

A bluegrass mandolin sure does need volume but paying $8000 or thereabouts for an instrument which mostly plays rhythm seems way off when a really good guitar may just be $2000. The mandolin mostly plays rhythm but if it's not in a bluegrass situation then the whole "ton of volume/bark/chop" thing isn't needed so a $450 mandolin, set up well, is good for 90% of us.

I have to confess mind you that I've over 200 mandolins in 40 years and fallen foul to buying expensive mandolins which weren't justified. Have I learned my lesson ?

I hope so

Jimmy
UK

[JeffD]

Are there mandolin players who perfer cheap/low-end mandos ($500 and less) to the Gibsons, Collings, Weber...ect?

Two items of background information I think are relevant:

Keep in mind that, as a general statement, a mandolin costs twice as much as a guitar of comparable quality. There are many individual exceptions, of course, but the general expectation for an under $500.00 mandolin is around the quality (sound, playability, fit, finish) you would expect in a guitar under $250.00. So one has to kind of calibrate the boundaries of low-end in mandolins.

Second, my own observation is that guitar culture and mandolin culture differ in many ways. One relevant way here is that the ideal of doing the most with the least and prizing a beat up wreck of an instrument found for nothing against the back wall in the men's room at the New York City Port Authority bus terminal, is less prevalent in the mandolin world. One is less likely to see a mandolin player carrying a mandolin without a case, jute chord for a strap, initials carved in the side, where as I have seen many such guitars carried around at bus stops and airports.

I would not say that more mandolinists appreciate fine instruments than guitarists, because I know quite a few guitarists who own and baby some really fine guitars. But, unlike the guitar world, I think the mandolin world lacks subculture of those who prize the beat up instrument that has seen abuse or a bad road.

(I have a couple of theories for this. One being that so many young guitarists and first time song writers appreciate the parallel between singing about deserving love while being broken, and lavishing love on a broken looking instrument. The other is my theory that for blues guitarists, playing a beater may help resolve the cognitive dissonance that would occur playing down and out bad times blues on a $5000.00 guitar. Goes to authenticity and at least looking, if not sounding, like you mean it.)

With the flat top recommendation, I am saying that for something under $1000.00 one could purchase a mandolin that could be preferred over all others, for its sound and playability and fit and finish, not for exemplifying the compromises made for love.

[foldedpath]

A bluegrass mandolin sure does need volume but paying $8000 or thereabouts for an instrument which mostly plays rhythm seems way off when a really good guitar may just be $2000. The mandolin mostly plays rhythm but if it's not in a bluegrass situation then the whole "ton of volume/bark/chop" thing isn't needed so a $450 mandolin, set up well, is good for 90% of us.

Try playing a mandolin in an Irish trad session with a half-dozen fiddlers, a guitarist, a box accordion, and a piercing tin whistle player. And then add a piper or two if it's a Scottish session.


I've heard vintage A style Gibsons and just about any flattop mandolin disappear in a group like that. My F-style archtop is still more background than foreground melody, but at least I can hear it. And I don't have trouble kicking off a set for the group (and then receding again). Loud, punchy mandolins aren't just for Bluegrass.

[Bob Clark]

I've heard vintage A style Gibsons and just about any flattop mandolin disappear in a group like that.

Hi Foldedpath,

Have you heard anyone try an ff hole Army/Navy flat top in that setting? These A/N flats can be so much louder than the design would suggest. I never expected much volume out of these small bodies until I heard what they can do. Mine is an oval hole, but there are ff's out there. I am just curious if you've seen one of these in that setting and if so, could it be heard? It's not my scene, so I wouldn't know.

Bob

[foldedpath]

Have you heard anyone try an ff hole Army/Navy flat top in that setting? These A/N flats can be so much louder than the design would suggest. I never expected much volume out of these small bodies until I heard what they can do. Mine is an oval hole, but there are ff's out there. I am just curious if you've seen one of these in that setting and if so, could it be heard? It's not my scene, so I wouldn't know.

No, I'd like to hear what it could do, but I've never seen one out here. Mandolin players of any stripe are thin on the ground out here in local Irish/Scottish sessions. The few I've met personally tend to prefer either old Gibson A's or F-style archtops. And that's still a very small sample.

Mandolin is not exactly a dominant instrument in this style of music, like it is in Bluegrass (massive understatement there), but we do what we can.

[jimmy powells]

Hi. Point taken and sure I appreciate a trad pub session needs the same type of loud mandolin but that was what I meant although I only used the term bluegrass. Having said that I've always thought that session tunes were better left to fiddle, accordion and tenor banjo.

Jimmy

[bart mcneil]

I think also that we earn to "prefer" the instruments we can afford. I am on a severely limited retirement income so buying a higher end instrument is simply out of the question. But as the owner of some nice sounding lower end instruments I enjoy talking about them.

But would I like to buy a nice Gibson? You bet!

[Greg P. Stone]

When I decided to learn guitar in 1985 my first guitar, the one I played for the next six years, was a December 1958 ('59 model) Gibson 335 so it was all downhill from there. My main electric now is a 2013 Gibson 50's Tribute Les Paul which I picked up when they were closing them out for $400.

I paid $250 for my Olympia OM06-SW, partly because of my affinity for the former local company, Tacoma Guitars, and partly because I determined that I was going to spend my money on education rather than an incrementally better mandolin. The day it arrived I spent an hour confirming that it was a quality instrument and that afternoon wrote check for $575 to attend the River of West mandolin camp this June. If the day comes when the mandolin is a real bottleneck rather than my technique I'll buy a "better" one.

That is my intention, however I try other mandolins all the time and when the right bargain tempts me, I may succumb.

[kurth83]

When I was a guitar player, I liked parlor guitars, and guitars with a smaller but beautiful sound.

Some (not all), cheaper mandos are like that, they have a smaller (but still beautiful) sound. All of my Eastman's fit in that category for me. One was sub-$500. The oval hole is particularly special in the sound category.

Throw in a pickup and such an instrument is good to go (I don't skimp on pickups though).

My first high end mando is actually too loud for me, made my ears rings and everything. I want to preserve what hearing I have left, so it's sitting on the shelf. Kinda wondering what to do with it now. Maybe useful for bluegrass jams where my Eastman's were totally lost. Loud every once in a while is ok for the ears, but not for an every day practice instrument.

[Br1ck]

I'm taking a fifties department store arch top guitar to open mic tonight. Think the lowest end Stella. It's solid birch, thin with next to no sustain, but has a great funky depression era vibe that makes it a trip to play now and then, with the added bonus I had to take the back off to do a cheater neck reset, so I put binding on, as it had white paint. I also refretted it.

I can in no way think the mandolin equivalent would do anything for me. The size works against it. My Michael Kelly makes for a nice camper. I also put some JJBs in the Archtop, so now it is electric. Maybe some JJBs in my MK would make it a cheap gig instrument, who can say. Unlikely to try it.