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Thread: the all mighty chop.

  1. #26
    Registered User LongBlackVeil's Avatar
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    Default Re: the all mighty chop.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    I am not sure I get you. In bluegrass I don't think its ever appropriate for the mandolin to do any single note stuff unless taking a break.

    There are other rhythm backup thingies besides chopping. But not playing single note stuff.
    I mean tremolos and little fills licks. Of course trying not to step on the shoes of the person taking the lead.

    I do stuff like that even when I AM chopping.but I think it sounds better to have only one mandolin chopping at a time, so if another mandolin is covering that base I try to something else, including other rhythymic things like letting the chords ring out sometime on the down beat
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    Default Re: the all mighty chop.

    I was referring to a bluegrass context. There are a lot of things a mandolin can do besides just a straight chop. Same goes for the other instruments. Our dobro player chops VERY well, as does the banjo player. They do other stuff too. The key is to be mentally present and actively listen to each other. I play with a group of guys that does this--or tries to most of the time. The backup texture changes from verse to verse or from verse to chorus. Maybe on the first verse the banjo quietly rolls/plays melodies while the mando chops and the dobro plays chords. Or on the second verse the banjo does an abbreviated roll while the mando plays single string stuff and the dobro chops. On the next, the dobro might play single string stuff while the mando chops and the banjo does some up-the-neck stuff, etc. Sometimes, for a short space, everybody might chop at the same time. There are lots of combinations to try. It's hard to do well, but you try to get to the point where you can do it automatically by listening to each other. I actually think that playing the backup parts is the hardest part of bluegrass music to do well. I think you try to compliment each other and comment on what the lead singer/player is saying.

    I also played in another band where the banjo player rolled loudly all the time--every song for the whole song. In that case I could do nothing but chop--every song for the whole song.

    And one more thing, when the guitar is taking a break, I try to play more open chords to fill in for the lack of guitar accompaniment.
    Steve



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    Default Re: the all mighty chop.

    Quote Originally Posted by SincereCorgi View Post
    That's interesting. I've been reading a book about Django Reinhardt's approach to rhythm, and he liked having two strong rhythm guitars behind him when he soloed because it let one pump the rhythm while the other could tremolo and add accents and otherwise drive the beat, similar to Monroe.
    What is the book about Django's approach to rhythm? Sounds interesting

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    Default Re: the all mighty chop.

    Who said the mandolin should chop except when taking the break, none of first generation bluegrass did that, the constant chop is recent.

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    Default Re: the all mighty chop.

    Indeed, the ever-present, metronomic chop is a recent development. Now, the Osborne-Duffey-Wakefield era also chopped, a lot; same with the Grisman-Bush-Roland White era, but the tick tick tick of the new breed goes beyond what them boys did. Back then, you could almost ID the picker by their chop - Duffey had a good one. Now, it's almost cookie cutter stuff, machine-like. And hard to link a given chop with a given picker.

    All that said, I love the chop.

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  9. #31
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    Default Re: the all mighty chop.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandoplumb View Post
    Who said the mandolin should chop except when taking the break, none of first generation bluegrass did that, the constant chop is recent.
    No one said that, but that what I do for the most part. That's my approach.

    I think the chop is the most important thing a mandolin does in a bluegrass setting

    Bluegrass is all about drive and the chop is an important part of that. Again, that's just my philosophy I don't think it should be taken as written in stone or anything.
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    Default Re: the all mighty chop.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandoplumb View Post
    Who said the mandolin should chop except when taking the break, none of first generation bluegrass did that, the constant chop is recent.
    What the first generation of bluegrass did is irrelevant, actually. What matters is what you can do in a jam today without getting the hairy eyeball. If the jam devolves into a technical discussion, then I have lost, even if I was historically right.

    It just seems that the mandolinner is expected to shine during the break, and chop otherwise, unless it is a private jam with friends you know who are willing to try more varied things.
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    Default Re: the all mighty chop.

    I am not a fan of "chop".

    Just sayin'.

  12. #34

    Default Re: the all mighty chop.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    What the first generation of bluegrass did is irrelevant, actually. What matters is what you can do in a jam today without getting the hairy eyeball. If the jam devolves into a technical discussion, then I have lost, even if I was historically right.

    It just seems that the mandolinner is expected to shine during the break, and chop otherwise, unless it is a private jam with friends you know who are willing to try more varied things.
    That's nonsense, if it isn't, you are jamming with a bunch of uptight fools who don't know squat about bluegrass.. It sure ain't like that where I jam.

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    Default Re: the all mighty chop.

    Ok I have a semi off topic question: What is it called when Chris Thile plays a dry flat muting of all four strings and it makes a scratching sound, not a "chop"? If you know what I mean? It is solely percussive. Does this have a name?

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    Default Re: the all mighty chop.

    The 'flop'? .. not really but I just think of it as a 'brush chop' as it seems more like using brushes on a snare than the full whack of a stick approach of the normal snare back-beat.
    Eoin



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    Default Re: the all mighty chop.

    I agree with Mike Bunting. If your jam has that strict of "rules" change jams. Also disagree that we should ignore 1st gen. players, the music has to advance but you should always know where it came from, if you disregard the beginning you will advance to the point that it is no longer what you started with.

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    Default Re: the all mighty chop.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Bunting View Post
    That's nonsense, if it isn't, you are jamming with a bunch of uptight fools who don't know squat about bluegrass.. It sure ain't like that where I jam.
    Holy cow that is crazy! I agree with Mike, uptight fools with no clue.

  19. #39
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    Default Re: the all mighty chop.

    When I first started trying the mandolin after playing the guitar for quite a while I was told "Don't play the mandolin like a guitar." I must have been strumming and filling too much space. About a year ago I grabbed a guitar to back up a banjo on a couple tunes and was told "Don't play the guitar like a mandolin." I must have been chopping and not providing enough of a backdrop of sound.

    We have all heard people refer to the "bark" that some mandolins have and that this one had more bark than that one etc. etc... Perhaps it is this type of measurement that is fueling the "chop craze" in some of the more modern bg.

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    I play a lot of different types of music but started in bluegrass. You learn what sounds good for the music you are playing and the people you are playing with, it's that simple. There are no rules. You also need to learn as many ways to play a chord as you can, it is necessary to becoming a good player. Set a goal to learn at least four ways to play each chord. That is a start and not a difficult task.
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    Default Re: the all mighty chop.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    I am not sure I get you. In bluegrass I don't think its ever appropriate for the mandolin to do any single note stuff unless taking a break.

    There are other rhythm backup thingies besides chopping. But not playing single note stuff.
    No, there are many times when little fills and back up licks are entirely appropriate. If the fiddle, the banjo or the guitar can do it, why can't the mandolin?
    "I thought I knew a lot about music. Then you start digging and the deeper you go, the more there is."~John Mellencamp

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    Default Re: the all mighty chop.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Broyles View Post
    No, there are many times when little fills and back up licks are entirely appropriate. If the fiddle, the banjo or the guitar can do it, why can't the mandolin?
    For every set of rules there is at least one creative way of breaking them.

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    Default Re: the all mighty chop.

    Quote Originally Posted by SGraham View Post
    And one more thing, when the guitar is taking a break, I try to play more open chords to fill in for the lack of guitar accompaniment.
    As a guitarist I would go crazy with a mandolin player doing that kind of jangly open string stuff behind me. The mandolin cannot replace the guitar in backup, because of its range - it's a minor tenth higher than the guitar. For me, at least, when soloing a natural impulse is to move up the neck - that can clash horribly with the mandolin. I would probably prefer the mandolin player to lay out (and the bass player to walk me through the solo) or scratch the muted strings rhythmically, à la Thile.

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    Default Re: the all mighty chop.

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph johansson View Post
    As a guitarist I would go crazy with a mandolin player doing that kind of jangly open string stuff behind me. The mandolin cannot replace the guitar in backup...
    I agree with you, Ralph. I'm not talking about jangly open string stuff. That would drive me crazy too if I were a guitarist. True, the mando can't replace the guitar. When the guitar is taking a break our banjo player will sometimes chop while the mandolin does a tasteful, attentive, understated rhythm in the background that compliments what the guitar is doing. It lets chords ring instead of muting them, but it's not a silly jangly ukulele strum at all. It's just another option among many, and definitely easier to show than to describe in writing.

    And also, since the guitar is the quietest instrument of the five in the band, everybody else backs way off the volume when he takes a break.
    Steve



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