Titebond III

[sunburst]

...I can show you at least one article where in a scientifically controlled glue strength test it proved to be just as strong HHG.

Did the test include exposure to very humid conditions and high heat? If you can show me evidence that fish glue and liquid hide glue hold up as well as hot hide glue under all the conditions that instruments are subjected to, then I'll accept that they are viable alternatives, but considering the hygroscopic nature of dried liquid hide glue and dried fish glue (more hygroscopic than hot hide glue, which is rather hygroscopic itself), I suspect a test under high humidity will not show similar results.

[JeffD]

The difference between epoxy and most glues is....

One of the best explanations I have ever read. Clear, concise, and perfectly understandable.

If you were teaching a course on glue, I would take it, and I have no reason to take a course on glue.

[Bernie Daniel]

Did the test include exposure to very humid conditions and high heat? If you can show me evidence that fish glue and liquid hide glue hold up as well as hot hide glue under all the conditions that instruments are subjected to, then I'll accept that they are viable alternatives, but considering the hygroscopic nature of dried liquid hide glue and dried fish glue (more hygroscopic than hot hide glue, which is rather hygroscopic itself), I suspect a test under high humidity will not show similar results.

I might do a little searching around for some information on that. I was planning to glue a back on a mandolin later this week with fish glue.

Certainly 120 - 140 degrees F (49 - 66 C) would be considered "high heat" for a wood instrument.

What would be considered "high humidity" (short of the instrument being immersed?) to the point of compromising the glue bond?

Most consider 40% RH to be ideal for instrument storage.

FYI here is one of the scientifically conducted tests that I was referring to where LHG and HHG come out about the same -- but no heat or humidity testing.

[sunburst]

What would be considered "high humidity" (short of the instrument being immersed?) to the point of compromising the glue bond?

I'm not sure, but it would be a good thing to know. I've heard tales of people taking their instruments on a trip to the beach where the humidity was high enough to cause fish glue to start letting go.
In general, we should try to keep our instruments in conditions of 40% to 60% RH ideally, 30% to 70% is pretty safe for moderate periods of time. As we all know, sometimes we don't have much choice when it comes to RH when we have to play in extreme conditions. (I remember one outdoor wedding reception where we were cooped up under a small overhang just out of the pouring rain watching a stream of water running through the big white banquet tent while we played. The bride had mud on the hem of her wedding dress extending up about a foot, and finally she and the groom just went out into the rain and started to dance, him in his tux and her in her wedding dress! When I saw that, I figured they had a pretty good chance of having a good marriage!)

[Pete Jenner]

Humidity here hasn't fallen below 89% in the last week and yesterday I did some fish glue tests. The results were so good that I decided use it to glue the back on to #6. I also used it to glue the neck of #5 last month.

It'll stay clamped up for at least 48 hours.

[Bernie Daniel]

Humidity here hasn't fallen below 89% in the last week and yesterday I did some fish glue tests. The results were so good that I decided use it to glue the back on to #6. I also used it to glue the neck of #5 last month.

It'll stay clamped up for at least 48 hours. ATTACH=CONFIG]128798[/ATTACH]

Well very timely information Peter -- now it just seems poetically correct to me that fish glue would tolerate water!

The RH is only 44% in my shop (basement) so I'll just give it 24 hours.

[siminoff]

Fish glue is a great substitute for hot hide glue, and its bonding characteristics and hardness are similar to HHG. However, fish glue can be worked cold, it's always at the ready, it's open time is about 15 minutes but it has a long clamp time (12 hr). It can be diluted and/or cleaned up with water, and it softens at about 150°F-160°F like HHG. I've never experienced problems with it softening or releasing in high humidity. Further, it has a long shelf life and can quickly be brought back to a usable consistency with water.

During our Luthierie Camps we give folks a piece of rib stock, and have them put similar-size dabs of hot hide glue, fish glue, Titebond Original glue, Franklin's Liquid Hide Glue, Titebond II, Titebond III, and Gorilla glue on the board and mark what they are. The next day they do a very simple hardness test by poking the dried dabs with an X-Acto knife. Then we do a heat test, and I suggest they take the boards home and do soak-in-water test. Try it - you'll learn a lot from this easy experiment. (Part of the experiment is to notice how the various glues shrink (or bubble in the case of Gorilla glue), and how some of them shatter if you hit them harder with the knife (guess which two shatter).

I urge not to not be fooled by the brand name "Liquid Hide Glue," it's a great marketing effort for cabinet makers and hobby carpenters.

A belated Happy New Year to all...

…R

[Bernie Daniel]

Fish glue is a great substitute for hot hide glue, and its bonding characteristics and hardness are similar to HHG. However, fish glue can be worked cold, it's always at the ready, it's open time is about 15 minutes but it has a long clamp time (12 hr). It can be diluted and/or cleaned up with water, and it softens at about 150°F-160°F like HHG. I've never experienced problems with it softening or releasing in high humidity. Further, it has a long shelf life and can quickly be brought back to a usable consistency with water.

During our Luthierie Camps we give folks a piece of rib stock, and have them put similar-size dabs of hot hide glue, fish glue, Titebond Original glue, Franklin's Liquid Hide Glue, Titebond II, Titebond III, and Gorilla glue on the board and mark what they are. The next day they do a very simple hardness test by poking the dried dabs with an X-Acto knife. Then we do a heat test, and I suggest they take the boards home and do soak-in-water test. Try it - you'll learn a lot from this easy experiment. (Part of the experiment is to notice how the various glues shrink (or bubble in the case of Gorilla glue), and how some of them shatter if you hit them harder with the knife (guess which two shatter).

I urge not to not be fooled by the brand name "Liquid Hide Glue," it's a great marketing effort for cabinet makers and hobby carpenters.

A belated Happy New Year to all...

…R

Thanks Roger! So you are obviously supportive of fish glue.

But on liquid hide glue I was not sure about your comments. Are you saying to be careful about what brand of LHG you buy (i.e., stick with name brands like Franklin)? Or do you advise just avoiding it all together?

Interesting observation I made last summer on Franklins' liquid hide glue.

Rummaging around some mandolin parts I bought in the 1970's I found a small brown bottle of Franklin's Hide glue -- see pic below.

Funny thing is I remember the day I bought it from Cliff's Hardware on N. High Street in Columbus (label shows I paid $1.59). I was gluing up an oak chair rung at our first house.

Since then, around 40 years ago, the bottle of glue has been stored in a box at room temperature in my basement. I tried the glue out just for fun.

It still dries as a brown, hard and crystalline-like bead and it glues wood just fine. Pretty LONG shelf-life?

I don't suggest that this bottle is typical of all LHG -- but I got what I got!

[Pete Jenner]

Well very timely information Peter -- now it just seems poetically correct to me that fish glue would tolerate water!

The RH is only 44% in my shop (basement) so I'll just give it 24 hours.

Timely indeed Bernie. I had just finished the glue tests when I saw this thread.

I've brought the mandolin inside the house for the night where the RH is considerably lower.

EDIT: I took the clamps off at 5 AM because the squeeze out glue is hard. 12 hours was probably enough as Roger suggested.

[siminoff]

Bernie… Hope all is well with you… Yes, I really like fish glue and use it where time is not an issue. As to Franklin Liquid Hide Glue (now called Titebond Liquid Hide Glue) while it is a natural protein emulsion like real hot hide glue, it's bonding properties are very different. Franklin originally made this glue to provide similar after-bonding properties to HHG - i.e., it would look like, sand like, and take finish like HHG (which is why I said not be fooled by brand names). But because of the vehicle (the substance that makes the glue "liquid), the strength of Liquid Hide Glue is even LOWER than Titebond Original Glue. Liquid Hide Glue has a reported strength so 3,591 psi at room temperature compared to Titebond Original Glue's 3,650 psi. However, Liquid Hide Glue's properties are very different from HHG in that when kept at 150°F for a period of time LHG's reported strength only drops to 3,207 psi whereas HHG is softened and almost liquifies at that temperature (by contrast, Titebond Original Glue drops to 1,250 psi when subjected to 150°F for an extended period (Titebond will soften for seam separation at about 180°-190°F).

I'm not quite sure what's happening to the branding of Franklin's adhesives. There are now about 18-20 "Titebond" variations, of which Titebond Liquid Hide Glue is one, and if I ever get a minute -hmmmm- I hope to test them all.

…R

PS: to make my long-winded story short, I urge that you do NOT use Franklin (or Titebond) Liquid Hide Glue for luthierie.

[Bernie Daniel]

...PS: to make my long-winded story short, I urge that you do NOT use Franklin (or Titebond) Liquid Hide Glue for luthierie.

Because you'll have a heck of time if you ever try to melt it to disassemble the instrument for repair? Right?

[siminoff]

Bernie - absolutely correct! It may be good to use for furniture under a barbecue pit, but not much else… R

[Bernie Daniel]

This is not Titebond III but it is series of tests on that kind of glue with different joints.