Titebond III

[CedarSlayer]

Bob Smalser is a fairly brilliant woodworker. Here is an article of his comparing glue strength when you want to repair a glue job.

It is quite clear that tightbond is poor stuff if you ever want to be able to repair. If you use tightbond on furniture, that furniture is now destined for the curb. To use it on an instrument would be horrid.

Bob

[peter.coombe]

To use it on an instrument would be horrid.

I don't think so. Epoxy is never used for structural repairs in musical instruments, and certainly not epoxy to Titebond, so that test is totally irrelevant. It is well known that old Titebond needs to be cleaned up before re-gluing, and if you do that there is no issue with repair work. It is extra work that does not need to be done with hide glue, but it is standard practice. Titebond original has been used on millions of guitars and mandolins. Are you saying they are all horrid? Same applies to furniture.

[CedarSlayer]

I don't think so. Epoxy is never used for structural repairs in musical instruments, and certainly not epoxy to Titebond, so that test is totally irrelevant. It is well known that old Titebond needs to be cleaned up before re-gluing, and if you do that there is no issue with repair work. It is extra work that does not need to be done with hide glue, but it is standard practice. Titebond original has been used on millions of guitars and mandolins. Are you saying they are all horrid? Same applies to furniture.

Here lies the problem. When a craftsman and an artist takes select and often rare materials and transforms them into an instrument, it seems quite sad when the methods used will ultimately shorten the life of that instrument. Tightbond is nice enough for now. And grabbing a bottle of it off the shelf is certainly easier than heating a pot of hide glue and learning how to use it well. But a good instrument, well made and well cared for, can last and bring joy for hundreds of years. Hide glue is a much better archival adhesive. Starting out with archival grade materials gives your instrument a much better chance of surviving the ages.

If the repair requires scraping away material, or if the repair requires using an acid that can soak into wood to break down the glue, the result of each successive repair will not be a full restoration but instead a partial amelioration.

The horrid part is when a brilliantly crafted instrument has it's life cut short due to common practice. I would not refuse an instrument simply because the wrong glue was used, nor would I try to replace that glue on an instrument. If however I was going to commission an instrument or decide between two instruments, the choice of glues used would factor very strongly in the decision.

Oddly enough there is a place where I would prefer a tightbond made instrument. For a backpacking beater, tightbond might be just the thing.

In the majority of luthery I would absolutely agree that epoxy is not ideal. I have had to use epoxy for structural repair on a musical instrument. I am not sure what other adhesive I could have used to repair a fiberglass guitar.

Bob

[Bill Snyder]

Titebond not tightbond.

[peter.coombe]

Mmm, the old old argument about hide glue vs Titebond and the other modern glues. Almost is a religion to some people. The argument rages in the guitar world as well. Personally I don't think it matters what you use, there is no such thing as a perfect glue. Each has it's advantages and disadvantages, including hide glue, and you use what ever works best for you for a particular purpose, and there is nothing wrong with using a number of different glues in one instrument. Titebond II is supposed to be a no no, but way back when I did not know any better I made a few mandolins with it and 20 years later they are all still doing fine. They will probably still be doing fine when I am long dead, but I do hope none need to be repaired! A well known violin maker told me he uses Titebond II in his violins (shock horror!). That did surprise me, but whatever, if it works for him so what. The purist hide glue people are no doubt unaware that some of the high price top mandolin makers don't use hide glue for every wood to wood join. But I'm not telling.

Maybe some one can enlighten me, but I am unaware of any music instrument that has had it's life cut short because it was glued together with Titebond original.

[CedarSlayer]

I have studied your methods quite intensively, Peter. While I will continue to differ with you on the subject of Titebond, I have the highest respect for your work. If anyone can manage to overcome the obvious disadvantages of using Titebond in luthery, it would be you!

I just feel for the poor folk 300 years from now trying to decide how to restore one of your instruments.

Bob

[peter.coombe]

Actually I don't use Titebond much at all. It does get used for gluing on wood bindings, but that is about it. I have been using LMI white for most wood to wood joins because it is more like hide glue than any other wood glue I know of. Unfortunately it is no longer available and I have been evaluating the new LMI yellow glue. I don't like it as much as the old LMI glue because it does not dry as hard, but it does have some other advantages. Hide glue is now a prohibited import into Australia, so I can no longer get the good clear stuff from the USA. As Pete has already pointed out, the dark stuff we can get here stinks something awful and I can't stand it. Our dogs love it though. Some Luthiers have got it into the country with other parts, but they risk the whole shipment getting confiscated with no compensation. The logic of the quarantine ban defies me. Hide glue is cooked during manufacture so there is no chance of bugs in it.

It is rare for a mandolin (or guitar) to last 300 years. They are not like violins. Twice as many strings and longer scale length makes a big difference.

[Tavy]

Peter - have you considered buying gelatin instead of Hide Glue? It's much more expensive (but in the great scheme of things still cheap), and a slightly different gram-strength to regular Hide glue, but clear and odourless and does the job just as well as far as one can tell. I bet the catering industry would sell you a big jar for not much more than the cost of HG actually?

Another tip pinched from a certain Frank Ford....

[peter.coombe]

No, I am not desperate to use hide glue. I don't stress out about glue, there are many more important things to worry about.

[tom.gibson]

Hide glue is now a prohibited import into Australia, so I can no longer get the good clear stuff from the USA.

When did it become prohibited? I ordered some last year without problems. Sounds like I better not waste it...

[Pete Jenner]

I can find no mention of it here.

[peter.coombe]

Pete

Maybe it is not a prohibited item in terms of Customs, but AQIS will not let it through, and if they detect it the entire shipment will be considered "contaminated". You are looking in the wrong place, it is not Customs that will stop importation. It comes under animal material, which is absolutely not allowed into the country by AQIS because of the risk of importing diseases. I don't have any personal experience, but some of the guitar makers have had a shipment with hide glue seized and destroyed. Others have been lucky and it went through, but only because AQIS did not detect it.

[Pete Jenner]

I see. Thanks Peter.

[Jim Adwell]

I wonder why this Australian luthier supply company sells hide glue, then.

http://luthierssupplies.com.au/produ...roducts_id=405

Someone might want to ask them how it is they have hide glue to sell. Maybe there is a manufacturer in Australia?

[Pete Jenner]

There is at least one manufacturer in Australia and that's the one who sells the smelly stuff. Perhaps there are two. I don't use ALS much because they are too expensive. It's quite often cheaper to import things from the US.

[Rick Turner]

Haven't been around here for a while, but here I is...

Another advantage in using HHG are that if you're doing a repair and everything fits, the glue line will virtually disappear. I've reglued a couple of completely busted through heels on our ukes...one a stage accident, the other was sat upon...and after I glued them and did the finish re-do...clear..., the glue joints were totally invisible. I did the work and I couldn't see the repair. Try that with Titebond or epoxy. When we glue up top seams in spruce, cedar, or redwood, if we join properly, you cannot see the glue joint.

HHG also seems to take stains much better than any other glue.

And then there's the issue of sanding, especially putting bookmatched flat tops and backs through our wide belt sander. HHG just powders off. Titebond gums up the belts. That alone is justification for using HHG.

Most of the younger generation of luthiers are basically afraid of HHG. They weren't trained in using it in the first place, and they get freaked out thinking that you have to get a joint together in five seconds. Judicious use of a hot box or heat gun can extend open time a bit. You can also use the steam activation trick go around a top or back and work one section at a time; this is common with bowed instrument luthiers putting cellos or basses together.

For me, it was like coming home to get back to using HHG...along with seven or more other glues and adhesives in my shop. They all have their place...except for T2 and T3!

[HoGo]

One of the biggest surprises of this year was when Roger Hargrave (one of the most prominent violin makers of our time) posted on maestronet forum (look for "making a double bass" thread on pegbox section - it's got some 40 pages now but it's all worth reading) that he used Titebond III for gluing center seam of his double bass back. Violin folks seem to be total HHG advocates but this was really something that hit me... someone supported the use linking the woodworking magazine test (posted here on the cafe as well).
I think, even the best of the best make mistakes...

[Rob Zamites]

So, after reading all these threads on glues, I'm gleaning the following:

• HHG is the ultimate way to do lutherie gluing
• For a simple, first-time or second time kit build, Titebond is fine
• Titebond II or III are to be avoided like the plague
• Plain unflavored gelatin works in a pinch as a hot hide glue substitute

Do I have this all correct? Sorry to be doing this:

[multidon]

Rob, you do have it right for the most part. Original Titebond is used way more than you may think it is though. A lot of the luthiers that post here are one man shops and do swear by HHG and nothing else will do for them. But Martin guitars are all made using PVA glue unless it is a special model. Ditto for Gibson Acoustic guitars, unless HHG is specified. My recently purchase Gibson J 15 is all Titebond except for the neck joint, which is HHG. This was obviously done to make neck resets easier, as the dovetail glued like that is easy to disassemble with steaming it. HHG is not as good for high production shops. And yet, no one says Martin or Gibson acoustic guitars are inferior because of the type of glue they use. Quite the opposite, they are held up as a golden standard. Truth be told, there are a lot of very fine instruments that use some form of PVA (polyvinyl acetate) glue in their construction.

Hot hide glue does have a learning curve. The biggest problem is you have relatively short working time. If you don't clamp it up right the first time you are basically screwed. With Titebond you get at least a few minutes to reposition if it isn't perfect out of the gate. That's why it's so beginner friendly. I would only recommend HHG to a beginner if they are willing to spend a lot of time practicing on scrap and getting familiar with it first. International Violin carries an inexpensive HHG kit for around 30 dollars. It's only a couple of jars and a coffee cup warmer but the instructions are well written and therefore of great value.

[JeffD]

Just on a whim I did some searching and found several sites teaching how to make hot hide glue from scratch. It does not seem to be an onerous process (like making a mandolin seems ), and like anything else, with practice and care I would think one could make the glue every bit as clear and clean as the commercially available stuff. Doesn't seem chemically prohibitive. Might not want to do it in the kitchen with brand cookware and limited ventilation, but it seems very do-able.

Time and access to hides. Probably time is the harder ingredient to acquire.

[fscotte]

Titebond III = No, no, and finally, no.

[Rob Zamites]

Hmmm, I have pig hides in my freezer, salvaged from whole pork shoulders I smoked.....nah, I'll just exchange this bottle of TB II for some TB I

[multidon]

Teacher is trying to teach her class what "hide" means, but poor little Johnny just doesn't get it. The teacher tries everything but he still doesn't get it. Finally in frustration she screams: "Hide! Hide! The cow's outside!"

Little Johnny says: "Why? Should I be afraid of a cow?"

Wait for it....

[Rob Zamites]

Teacher is trying to teach her class what "hide" means, but poor little Johnny just doesn't get it. The teacher tries everything but he still doesn't get it. Finally in frustration she screams: "Hide! Hide! The cow's outside!"

Little Johnny says: "Why? Should I be afraid of a cow?"

Wait for it....

Mission: GLUE accomplished, got the real stuff, and found this Dremel mini-set in the bargain bin at Lowe's for $12!

[Bernie Daniel]

So, after reading all these threads on glues, I'm gleaning the following:

• HHG is the ultimate way to do lutherie gluing
• For a simple, first-time or second time kit build, Titebond is fine
• Titebond II or III are to be avoided like the plague
• Plain unflavored gelatin works in a pinch as a hot hide glue substitute

Do I have this all correct? Sorry to be doing this:

Likewise sorry to be like a (see image below) but two gluing options that always seem to be left of these Titebond versus HHG discussions are:

1) liquid hide glue and 2 ) fish glue

Both are excellent options.

Liquid hide glue like Franklin's brand is cheap can be purchased from appropriate section of your hardware store and I can show you at least one article where in a scientifically controlled glue strength test it proved to be just as strong HHG. For sure it is a lot easier to use.

Fish glue is more expensive but is also very strong and also avoids the tricky preparation and handling aspects of HHG.

The disadvantage of these two glues is that they do have shelf life issues that need to be attended to.