On a scale of one to ten...

[lflngpicker]

I am a 2 on technical playing but I can play chords and small runs to connect chords enough to perform songs that I accompany myself singing. As a "chorder" for singing, I would give myself a 7 because I can play major and minor chords in a number of keys to accompany country, folk, rock, blues and gospel songs. I am working on tab that is posted here to improve my abilities with instrumental music. The guitar skills I have made the transition for using a mandolin in the band at church and for singing solos at the rest home I visit twice each month a quicker transition. I think I am an anomaly because I use the mandolin to sing rather than to play instrumental styles. I am in awe of those that can-- you are my heroes!

[JeffD]

I have no idea what the average mandolin player sounds like. I have heard so few mandolin players. I am usually one of two mandolin players at most jams, and I always know the other player real well. At mandolin workshops, the few I have attended, its hard to tell because other than the material at hand, you don't hear much (except the show offs).

And then there is that show off effect. In casual short term contact with folks at workshops or jams at festivals, where you are unlikely to meet these folks again, you hear someone play something brilliantly, just nailing it, and you have no idea that he has been practicing that thing for 24 years, to the near exclusion of everything else. You know, regardless of what my level is, there is not much I couldn't learn to do given great gobs of time and nothing else to focus upon. You hear someone play one tune and you have no idea how "good" they are. Except on that one tune.

But I do come away feeling like, oh, ok, I'm not much I guess.

I do check in to the tune of the week folks now and again, and poke around tunes I like.

I would bet the heavy tune of the week participants and those who are in the Mike Marshall Artist Works School of Mandolin and watch the video clips have a much better idea what average might be.

Measuring myself against myself - I am much further along than I ever thought I would ever be, and yet there is a whole lot that I wish I could do.

Calling myself the middle of the pack is like identifying yourself in the center because the line stretches infinitely on either side.

So, I have not much basis for self assessment. Now I can tell you I enjoy the potatoes out of it. Every. Single. Time.

[Jeffff]

Among the people I play with I am the best mandolin player because I am the only mandolin player, I am a 10.

Among mandolin players.... I mostly suck.

Neither of those ratings inhibits my enjoyment of whacking away on the mandolin.

[sgrexa]

Until I recently started to focus and learn some challenging pieces (of course, this is music I enjoy and have so for some time) I hadn't realized how stagnant my playing had become. I was basically noodling around on the same old licks and songs over and over again for over ten years! In less than a year, I have finally progressed to a point where I am starting to feel good about my playing again. I still have a long way to go, but it is fun, challenging, and the possibilities seem only as limitless as my imagination and determination.

Sean

PS- Ellen I had you mixed up with another Ellen, but I like my 3 and I am going to stick with that!

[JeffD]

All I can say is that ever since I started to focus and learn some challenging pieces ... my playing remained stagnant.

I think this is important. And I know I feel the least competent when pushing myself on a new tune or new exercise or whatever. So the paradox is the better I feel about how I am doing overall, the less I am probably pushing myself, and probably less progressing, and the less satisfied I am, the more I am pushing myself, and hopefully progressing.

[outsidenote]

Mike Doyle (http://www.mikedoyle.com/ - for the noncognoscenti) says that the best surfer in the water is the one who is having the most fun. So I guess I'm pretty good at surfing and mandolin. As long as nobody hears me and I don't "snake" anyone else in the water.

[JeffD]

It would make you more fun to play with for people who want to play Brilliancy or Tico Tico.

I've found it very empowering to learn pieces that are outside my genre and comfort zone. And playing tunes like these that get the listener interested - well, it's hard to see what's wrong with that.

Nothing wrong with it at all. I am only saying in my experience those "solo set pieces" that showcase brilliance, are less inclusive. They are a good challenge, and can be fun to learn and good to know. Like having some Bach pieces under your belt.

And for a performance either solo or with backup they are great.

But in terms of fulfilling my prime directive of being more fun to play with - I don't see how they contribute.

An example of what I think of as an inclusive piece - Down Home Waltz. Its so pretty, the chords are not too crazy, and folks who play seem to naturally want to play along. It is inviting.

A piece that is more brilliant, but still inviting, would be something like Gravel Walk, Found Harmonium, or others like that, finger busters perhaps at first, but tunes that just sound like they would be fun to jump in on.

If I had a dime for everyone that wanted to play Tico Tico with me, or even to hear me play it, well I wouldn't even have a dime.

[Petrus]

Probably a 2. I keep thinking of this little phenomenon:

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias manifesting in unskilled individuals suffering from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than is accurate. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their ineptitude. Conversely, people with true ability tend to underestimate their relative competence based on the erroneous or exaggerated claims made by unskilled people. David Dunning and Justin Kruger of Cornell University conclude, "the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning...3Kruger_effect


I do well by my own standards but my style is not standard practice. As my fingers are always getting in the way of each other in certain chords, I've pretty much given up on certain chord shapes and stick to the simple ones involving barres and semi-barres and sus4's where I can just fret two adjacent strings, giving me a power chord of the root and the 5th, with no hassle. I can do two-finger chords if the higher note is on a higher fret than the lower one; otherwise, I find the lower-string finger is always getting in the way. I.e., I'm okay with G, C, E, and D, but not G7.

I have also found a lot of old tunes just sound alike to me or don't interest me that much, so I end up learning specific modules or phrases in them, then moving the phrases around to make tunes which work just as well. I know one Irish style jig and just repeat the rhythm, varying the notes here and there, and it works well enough. I also learned Bach's Minuet in G a long time ago; I'll play that, then mix the notes and rhythm up and make new quasi-baroque sounding tunes using only those notes.

I also use the "hundred monkeys on a hundred typewriters" style of playing -- you know, like in the old anecdote where if you get enough monkeys typing on enough typewriters at random they'll eventually produce the works of Shakespeare, just from the law of statistics.

[Bertram Henze]

I also use the "hundred monkeys on a hundred typewriters" style of playing -- you know, like in the old anecdote where if you get enough monkeys typing on enough typewriters at random they'll eventually produce the works of Shakespeare, just from the law of statistics.

At least, this offers an answer to the open riddle who really wrote Shakespeare's plays. It might also encourage us to noodle more and thereby produce world-class compositions eventually. (Joking aside, the composer of this tune, Ian Hardie, wrote on the published sheet music for it: "this tune emerged when rehearsing with Jock Tamson's Bairns at Rod Paterson & Catriona Rioch's house in Perthshire". That's what I call a happy accident.)

[Jim]

6 and probably always will be no matter how hard I try. I fit the advanced or expert levels as described by Flatpicker .com or the Colorado roots music skill level on both guitar and mandolin. I can hang in most jams and pickin circles and get payed to play sometimes. People seem to enjoy my music and I mostly like it myself. However when I listen to players like Steffy or Bush or Marshall ect. or to some of these kids that win the contests there is such a huge gulf between what I can do and what they can that I can never see myself as anything but a little better than average, 6. And that 6 took me 47 years of playing to achieve. Not complaining I play because I love it and learn something new often. It's great to hear those 10s, gives ya something to try for.

[Petrus]

At least, this offers an answer to the open riddle who really wrote Shakespeare's plays. It might also encourage us to noodle more and thereby produce world-class compositions eventually.

Unfortunately what they don't tell you in the anecdote is that it would take something like 10^100 years for the monkeys to type the works of Shakespeare purely at random, which is a few billion billion times longer than the history of the universe so far. But if you're only going for a song with a few notes it probably will be a lot quicker.

[Pasha Alden]

Hi Dan and others!
Well, I too will rate myself less of a technical player. I give myself a three. Though like Dan I play chords, some 7ths, majors minors, starting to manage things like C# F# major minor well, 7ths and minors. Working more on diminished chords. I accompany myself. I was told by my former guitar teacher from school many moons ago that my chord progression was not half shoddy. So I give myself an 8 for accompanying others. Working furiously to further improve my tremolo, my solo playing. For that I am finding pentatonic scales and just all finger exercises is starting to assist neatly.

Also working on playing light classical mandolin with the Suzuki range for violin. The reason: no mandolin music available in braille. So most music learnt by ear. Though you solo players and Classical players of note a shout out you are the best.



















Also starting to manage double stops well enough, did some on Brown Eyed Girl.

In addition to this seemingly long post, I thank some mandolin players for there remarks in this thread, they serve as encouragement to play for enjoyment and measure against one's own ability. Now my confession to the mandolin players:
For a while I almost stopped playing mandolin feeling my playing was stagnating. Very sad. I erroneously compared myself to everyone on the café who played classical music, brilliant jazz. Very silly I know. I mean I have not even played for two years, had no access to a mandolin teacher, no music, apart from that which I learnt by ear. Also adapting my accompaniment score to 6: I can work more on varying my playing; string separation: picking patterns etc.
Happy playing all!

[journeybear]

I don't know where I'd rank myself, if I were to take this seriously. I tend to be pretty humble about myself - just smarter that way, run into fewer dirty looks and upturned noses. So that would skew my estimates downward; to allow for that I have to force myself to set the ranking higher. Which may not be that far from the truth, anyway. In some contexts, I am the best - best in my family, best in my band, best among my friends, best in my neighborhood, best in town, best in the Keys as far as I know. I am definitely best at playing my music, the music I like to hear, my songs. No one plays them better than I do; heck, hardly anyone even tries. But as others have said, there's always room for improvement, and I know I hit the occasional clunker now and then. So I'll give myself a 9. Besides, it's my favorite integer.

[AlanN]

there is not much I couldn't learn to do given great gobs of time and nothing else to focus upon.

Disagree. Some pickers are just wired differently, the way their right hand works, the groove they get, the whole thing. If you can 'learn' it, good on ya.

You hear someone play one tune and you have no idea how "good" they are. Except on that one tune.

I find that if I hear one tune from someone, or see/hear them pick for 5 seconds, I can tell what they can do on mostly anything.

[James Rankine]

As others have already said, in order to make progress you have to want to improve something, in other words be unhappy with the state of your playing. This applies to the great players of the Thile/Marshall ilk. Mike Marshall said on one of his atristwork's videos that he had recently been talking to Chris Thile and Chris had said he was unhappy with his playing at the moment. So whilst we would mark him 10 on the scale he would probably mark himself down. Reaching 10 is like trying to travel at the speed of light, the closer you approach it the harder it is to make progress towards it so that 10 reaches off into infinity. So no one then can reach 10 on the scale, apart from old sausage who is deservedly there and now relaxing in his smoking jacket and slippers

[Austin Bob]

This is actually pretty hard for me to answer truthfully to myself. On some areas, like singing, I'm barely a 3 on a good day. Usually worse. I read music at a Dick and Jane level, so maybe a 3 there as well.

Songwriting is another area that needs improvement. I've composed a few ok melodies, but the words always fail me. I could never have enough confidence to write something like Silly Love Song and think anyone would ever want to hear it.

Theory.. so so. I get the easy stuff, but when you start talking advanced concepts like modes, my eyes roll back in my head and I say, "just play it and I'll follow along."

What I am really good at is following others, and filling in the blank spaces with color. Maybe a 7 or even an 8 at times.

And today all the other instrumentalists were off from the choir today, so I lead the entire congregation of about 250 with one guitar. I had to step out of my comfort zone to do it, but it went extremely well. I only missed one chord change, but kept the rhythm up so no one even noticed. Several people told me afterwards what a great job I did, so it must have been ok.

I'd guess all in all, I'd rank myself as a solid 6, with a bullet.

[JeffD]

Disagree. Some pickers are just wired differently, the way their right hand works, the groove they get, the whole thing. If you can 'learn' it, good on ya.

I guess what my experience is that the problems I have playing some tunes or some pieces, are problems I have no doubt I could work out or work through. Some would take immense amounts of work, (like some of the Bach), but I have not hit anything that was in another league with no path between me and competence. As long as you don't require me to learn it fast, and can give me enough time.

I find that if I hear one tune from someone, or see/hear them pick for 5 seconds, I can tell what they can do on mostly anything.

I am not sure how you can say that without making an assumption about how "evenly applied" their abilities are. I know a few folks who excel at a small handful of tunes, or maybe just two, really excel, but are poor at just about everything else. If you were to hear them on the stuff they have worked out, you might be lulled into thinking they were recording artists.

I don't know how one gets that way, or what motivates someone to go after music that way, but I know more than one person like that, and have thought it was perhaps more common.

I would not find what you say at all implausible if we were talking about improvising, and listening to someone jump in on a tune. But just hearing someone play his favorite, I dunno.

[fatt-dad]

4. I'm shooting for 5 though. . .

f-d

[Dave Cohen]

Can there be negative numbers?

[Petrus]

I am not sure how you can say that without making an assumption about how "evenly applied" their abilities are. I know a few folks who excel at a small handful of tunes, or maybe just two, really excel, but are poor at just about everything else.

It's very much like a foreign language. I can say "I can't understand you" in six different languages.

[JeffD]

It's very much like a foreign language. :

There is something to that. If someone speaks a phrase in English, native speakers can tell how well that person is going to speak English on every other English phrase he utters. It is unlikely, however, that a person will work on a single phrase so much that they get it right enough to fool a native, and yet can't speak any other phrase fluently.

And I wonder if the folks I know who are like this are real exceptions. Could well be.

But it has given me comfort anyway, when I hear an amateur picker like me, showing off by himself in the campgrounds, and absolutley nailing it, it has given me comfort to think that it may be the only tune he nails like that. Don't take my only comfort.

[Bertram Henze]

Don't take my only comfort.

Rest assured that, although I play approx. 60 Irish tunes reasonably well, there are thousands I can't play at all

[Ellen T]

For something that I threw out as a lightweight topic, this has elicited some very thoughtful and thought-provoking replies.

I'm struck by the recent posts about being able to assess a player's ability by one tune (or not). I watch The Voice and I used to watch a few other singing competitions, and I've noticed that there are some singers who are so impressive in their initial appearance and are selected to continue, but then fall apart quickly because they cannot pick up a new style or, in some pathetic cases, a new song in their own genre. Apparently they have practiced one or two songs to perfection, and that's it. So, it seems possible that the same could be true for players. I know I have a handful of tunes that I can play very well, and I start and end my practice with those because it keeps my head in a good place for the next time. It's easy to get too comfortable, though, and I try to learn new stuff, but not as frequently as I should. My own number will probably always be low, partly because I just play for fun and I'm too lazy to really work at it - for which I do not apologize; we do not all have to aspire to greatness. Also, my fingers are just not as accurate as they used to be. I used to be a very good typist, but I've noticed lately that I make a lot of errors, so I think my brain-to-finger skills are going haywire in general as I get older, and speed is another issue that age affects. If I had been a fast player for years, it might be different, but there are some tunes that I am pretty good at that I just can't play faster no matter how many times I try, and I think it is just physical. And, the memory isn't what it used to be, so as much as I try to memorize pieces, I still have to reinvent the same ol' wheel more often than I would like.But it's ok, because it's not a contest I'm trying to win anyway. On the plus side, while I am sitting there trying to think of the tune I wanted to start, and not finding it in the mouldy rolodex of my mind, I sometimes just start playing at random and think, "Oh, that sounds pretty cool," and wonder if I have it in me to create a tune. Of course, it could be something I already know but don't know I know it!

Thanks to all of you for sharing so much about yourselves and your playing! Each of you is a 10 in personality, that's for sure.

[Randi Gormley]

Ha! JeffD -- re: speaking a phrase in a foreign language well enough to fool natives. I once was standing in line in an airport in Morocco waiting to get on the plane (many, many years ago) and the guy looking at the paperwork looked at my job (journalist) and asked me in his language what paper I worked for and I couldn't understand a single word he said. I said "pardon?" in what appeared to be a perfect French accent because the French guy behind me said "nom de journal, mam'sel" at which point I, in my very Ohioan accent, answered the question. And the French guy behind me then said something to me in English as we walked toward the plane. Obviously a fluke, but your comment brought it to mind!

[9lbShellhamer]

I'm a 3.

I think most of us are never capable of reaching a 10/10 due to natural innate restrictions we are born with due to ears, dexterity, etc.

I think most of us are capable of reaching 9/10 which is probably where most of the famous players we idolize are with the exception of a few greats...

In running it's like this... some runners can train and run a 2:05 marathon. (...Like 20 people in the world. The 10/10 folks)

Most people start off running and do a 5.5 hour marathon, (Like hundreds of thousands of people), (the 3/10 folks) but with incredibly hard work they are capable of running more and more and eventually lowering their time to reach 100% of their potential and eventually run a 3 hour marathon, (reaching 8 / 10 status) .

It's like those runners go from a 3 to an 8 or 9.

It's the age old debate of inborn talent vs hard work.

In running, it's easy to quantify. Just look at historical data, and determine your finishing percentile over a large pool of data and find the average.

Music is art however. It's not quantifiable as easily.



That made since to me at least...