Is an F-5L the same as a Fern?

[almeriastrings]

Tough one... because there are so many other variables. Example: I have three mandolins with red-spruce tops (5 if you also count the pair of KM-1000's currently in residence), a Northfield Big Mon, a Jim Triggs '23V and an Ellis F-5 Special. No two of those sound identical, and indeed, a couple of them are totally dissimilar at polar opposites of the tonal spectrum. Same with "varnish" vs. lacquer. I've concluded that whether spirit, oil varnish or lacquer it is far more important that it's thin than what it actually is...

As for mandolins, again, I really believe it is more down to the skill of the builder/top carver, than what the base material is in terms of Red Spruce, Sitka, Englemann, etc., or even Redwood.... a truly great builder can make a great mandolin from any of them, using whatever finish they prefer. The more I've learned over the years, the less emphasis I place on "paper specs" as a guide to what is "best" or what I might end up preferring. Same with guitars too. Being a bluegrass flatpicker I am "supposed" to always prefer a red spruce top.... but my '50 D-28 is Englemann, and I also have a red cedar over rosewood guitar I really, really like...

[DataNick]

Tough one... because there are so many other variables. Example: I have three mandolins with red-spruce tops (5 if you also count the pair of KM-1000's currently in residence), a Northfield Big Mon, a Jim Triggs '23V and an Ellis F-5 Special. No two of those sound identical, and indeed, a couple of them are totally dissimilar at polar opposites of the tonal spectrum. Same with "varnish" vs. lacquer. I've concluded that whether spirit, oil varnish or lacquer it is far more important that it's thin than what it actually is...

As for mandolins, again, I really believe it is more down to the skill of the builder/top carver, than what the base material is in terms of Red Spruce, Sitka, Englemann, etc., or even Redwood.... a truly great builder can make a great mandolin from any of them, using whatever finish they prefer. The more I've learned over the years, the less emphasis I place on "paper specs" as a guide to what is "best" or what I might end up preferring. Same with guitars too. Being a bluegrass flatpicker I am "supposed" to always prefer a red spruce top.... but my '50 D-28 is Englemann, and I also have a red cedar over rosewood guitar I really, really like...

Interesting and thought provoking observations, especially re: varnish as some swear on the "secret sauce" component of a particular oil varnish versus spirit, and I've also heard lacquer categorized as less "Loar-like" in it's effect on tone versus oil varnish. Gives me some things to think about as I plan on the "next" acquisition!

Thanks Again for your comments, they're much appreciated!

[almeriastrings]

Well... they have been arguing for 200 years+ about that with violins.... and when it comes to Loars and original Ferns, there is still a lot of "unknowns" there in terms of finish, with various theories in circulation as to exactly what was used, when, and how.... things sent back and re-done, lacquer over varnish... all kinds of things. Then there is Sam Bush's mandolin, which is good enough for him to have used throughout his career, refinishing and various "Random Hippie Sanding" episodes notwithstanding...

See remarks from Lynn Dudenbostel and John Hamlett in this older thread:

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...in-fingerboard

[Bernie Daniel]

Thread Bump:

I met a really nice mando guy who is an MD from the Southwest USA, conference/vacationing in Carlsbad this week. He showed up to a weekly jam that I go to and he brought along his F-5L. He has a 1980 F-5L that is in good condition and I'm pretty sure it's probably one of the last ones that Roger Siminoff graduated/tap-tuned.

We hung out together, playing licks, mando duets on breaks, and talking shop all evening. Apparently he purchased it at Mandolin Bros. almost 20 years ago. All original parts, etc. It plays nice, and the feel and the tone is remarkably really close to my 94' F5-L which is really interesting because his is from Kalamazoo, mine from Bozeman, and they're 14 years apart. That says to me that the specs must not have changed all that much, and that Gibson must have a rigid spec adherence methodology. One difference that I did notice however is that his Fern inlay is a different Fern design than mine, and the pearl inlay is a different color.

Really nice instrument and enjoy the pics below. Sorry, but the lighting was horrible and with the crowd noise, and mass of humanity, I didn't get a better shot of the label, so it's hard to make out the signature. All in all, pretty cool stuff though!

Very interesting post and pics there Nic!

I was planning on pointing this out but your already did with you pics.

But it bears mentioning again there are really three Gibson F-5L mandolin models.

First, the original Kalamazoo version inspired by Roger Siminoff. These were first built in 1977 and introduced in 1978.

Second, starting in about 1988 there is the Bozeman model built and signed by Steve Carlson (as Nick points out both the Kalamazoo and Bozeman models had mortise & tenon neck joints and were very similar builds -- with cosmetic differences);

Third, the Nashville version starting in about 1998 when the building fell to Charlie Derrington and the F-5L got the dove-tail neck joint and other changes -- some time after the start up of the Nashville production models the name was changed to F-5 Fern.

And I do not think the F-5 Fern ever has had a radiused fret board. The Sam Bush and Goldrush models do.

[DataNick]

Right on Bernie!

[almeriastrings]

some time after the start up of the Nashville production models the name was changed to F-5 Fern.

They were still using the F-5L designation in March, 2000, when mine was signed by CD. I don't know the exact date they started writing F-5 Fern (as they do now).

[mandotim1955]

My F5 was made in February 2002, and says 'Fern' on the label (signed by Danny Roberts). Anybody narrow it down further?

[Bernie Daniel]

My F5 was made in February 2002, and says 'Fern' on the label (signed by Danny Roberts). Anybody narrow it down further?

It seems maybe 2001? I've seen several 2002 Ferns (owned one of them) and almeriastrings had a 2000 F-5L -- so there you go.

How do you like your 2002 Fern?

I can honestly say I have never seen a bad one from that year. The problem that Jonathan McClanahan reported in another thread (the re-voicing thread) was surprising to me.

But I know that Jonathan knows what he is doing so somehow a bad one seems to have been made and then it got out the door!

[mandotim1955]

Hi Bernie. My Fern is my main gigging mandolin, and it's a complete monster. I had an offer the other day to swap it 'evens' for a vintage Paganoni F5 in excellent condition, but the Pag didn't have the sheer power that mine has, although it had tone to spare. It's got a few minor battle scars now, and it gets worked hard, but it's improving all the time from a very high baseline. I play in acoustic sessions when I'm not gigging with the band, and the Fern cuts through for solos whatever is in the room. Plays like butter, especially since I had it refretted with slightly larger stainless steel frets. It's pretty, but it's a tool, not an ornament, and it does its job perfectly.

[DataNick]

Tim,

Nice description of your Fern...any pics?

I re-fretted mine upon acquisition in May with the Jescar EVO 0.80 gold fretwire and I couldn't be happier. Since mine is my "only" mandolin (till I get my 99' Flatiron Performer A back) I'll eventually look to pick up another F model and I'm leaning heavily in the direction of the current "Harvey" Gibsons (Fern or F-5G Custom)

[Bernie Daniel]

Hi Bernie. My Fern is my main gigging mandolin, and it's a complete monster. I had an offer the other day to swap it 'evens' for a vintage Paganoni F5 in excellent condition, but the Pag didn't have the sheer power that mine has, although it had tone to spare. It's got a few minor battle scars now, and it gets worked hard, but it's improving all the time from a very high baseline. I play in acoustic sessions when I'm not gigging with the band, and the Fern cuts through for solos whatever is in the room. Plays like butter, especially since I had it refretted with slightly larger stainless steel frets. It's pretty, but it's a tool, not an ornament, and it does its job perfectly.

That matches my experience. One afternoon I had a chance to trade off and play my '02 Gibson Fern (April 23, 2002 signed by Danny Roberts; purchased from the Mandolin Store) with a number of other great mandolins including a '23 Gibson Loar-signed, a Red Diamond, a Buckeye, a couple of nice Webers and a Collins MF - there were several other respected brands there. The Fern was (to my ear at least) comparable or equal to anything in the room. It got a lot of surprised looks and compliments too, Those were very good years (e.g., '01 - '03) for Gibson mandolins.

I eventually traded it for a '01 Sam (to get the wider, radiused fretboard) and it is probably almost as good as the Fern. In fact, after I had a David Harvey set up done on it I'd say after that they were very comparable. The person who eventually acquired my Fern is still raving about it. Again those were very good years in Nashville.

Pics of my former mandolin....

[DataNick]

Wow! She's a beauty Bernie! If she sounded that good it would have been hard for me to trade her for Bush...LOL!

I'm sure there was a method to your madness...LOL! The same reason a friend of mine got a Bush...he just about has a conniption if asked to play a Loar sized nut and neck width...LOL!

[Bernie Daniel]

Wow! She's a beauty Bernie! If she sounded that good it would have been hard for me to trade her for Bush...LOL!

I'm sure there was a method to your madness...LOL! The same reason a friend of mine got a Bush...he just about has a conniption if asked to play a Loar sized nut and neck width...LOL!

Thanks Nick!

I have BFFD (Big fleshy fingers disorder) -- the 1 1/16" nut on that Fern was bridge not far enough for me. But if I ever have such a fine mandolin again I will be surprised. And I can thank Dennis Vance for that!!

I bought instruments from back him in the days his Mandolin Store was only 60 miles from my house (in Washington Courthouse, Ohio).

One day I told him to find me a good Gibson F-5 and he sent that Fern to me from Arizona before I even paid him. I thought I had died and gone to heaven when I got it!

I did a lot of upgrades to it including the gold engraved James TP and the solid abalone pearl truss rod cover. I was getting ready to spring for gold-plated Waverlys when Danny Clark sent me an email about a 2001 Sam that he had just got in.....

[J.Albert]

Bernie wrote above:
[[ And I do not think the F-5 Fern ever has had a radiused fret board. The Sam Bush and Goldrush models do. ]]

Goldfish models (at least the pre-flood ones) have -flat- fingerboards.
Mine does.

[Bernie Daniel]

Bernie wrote above:
[[ And I do not think the F-5 Fern ever has had a radiused fret board. The Sam Bush and Goldrush models do. ]]

Goldfish models (at least the pre-flood ones) have -flat- fingerboards.
Mine does.

OK, I stand corrected then but the do share a wider nut with the Sam right?

[DataNick]

Thread Bump:

I met a really nice mando guy who is an MD from the Southwest USA, conference/vacationing in Carlsbad this week. He showed up to a weekly jam that I go to and he brought along his F-5L. He has a 1980 F-5L that is in good condition and I'm pretty sure it's probably one of the last ones that Roger Siminoff graduated/tap-tuned.

We hung out together, playing licks, mando duets on breaks, and talking shop all evening. Apparently he purchased it at Mandolin Bros. almost 20 years ago. All original parts, etc. It plays nice, and the feel and the tone is remarkably really close to my 94' F5-L which is really interesting because his is from Kalamazoo, mine from Bozeman, and they're 14 years apart. That says to me that the specs must not have changed all that much, and that Gibson must have a rigid spec adherence methodology. One difference that I did notice however is that his Fern inlay is a different Fern design than mine, and the pearl inlay is a different color.

Really nice instrument and enjoy the pics below. Sorry, but the lighting was horrible and with the crowd noise, and mass of humanity, I didn't get a better shot of the label, so it's hard to make out the signature. All in all, pretty cool stuff though!

Thread Bump #2:

Was just discussing who likely carved the soundboard on my buddy's F-5L referenced above, and Roger Siminoff gave this answer:

DataNick… Yes, I carved the soundboards and backboards for the F5Ls through early 1981. I'm uncertain of the last day they actually used parts from my machine because a) there was still an inventory of carved soundboards and backboards as I was sending new ones, b) I don't know how may boards were damaged and not used either at the outset or somewhere during production, and c) we finally set up their carver with some master patterns from my machine and I don't know the exact break point between my carving and their carving. (If there are more questions on this topic, let's take it off to a new thread so we don't hijack this great thread). …R

Mr. Simifoff,

Of particular note in this thread is ascertaining the consistency of the F-5L specs from initial development on the project you championed as compared to the Bozeman specs. Are there any differences that you are aware of that you can share?

[siminoff]

DataNick - thanks for bumping to this thread. Since I had not seen this post before, I'd like to answer first the original question: "Is an F5L the same as a fern?" to which I have very specific first-hand knowledge. When we were working on the re-issue of the F5 mandolin in 1978, I specifically requested of Bruce Bolen that we call it an "F5L" because we were getting back to Loar specs (what Gibson was producing in the mid-1970s was very far afield from original Loar-signed F5 specs). He agreed, so when this re-make of the F5 was launched in June of 1978 at the summer NAMM show in Chicago, its official designation was "F5L." This particular string of mandolins featured a fern inlay pattern, so to your question: yes, one could say that "the original F5L is the same as a fern" but since "fern" only describes the inlay and binding, I prefer to talk about the model rather than the cosmetics, and to at least say "an F5 with fern inlay." (But that's me being picky!)

To you second question, yes, there was a departure from our specs when the mandolin production went to Bozeman - so in essence there was a departure from F5 specs. Several things changed, but of primary importance is that Bozeman was not using the master carving patterns we had prepared, and they were not using the "deflection" tuning system we developed. There were also minor cosmetic and shape changes. …R

[DataNick]

Mr. Siminoff,

Thank you so much for your contributory responses to this subject matter which is fascinating to some of us. Could one make a case then, as far as the Bozeman Gibsons are concerned, that they were more "Flatiron-like" in spec versus Gibson F5 in spec?

[siminoff]

DataNick - absolutely! …R

[Bernie Daniel]

DataNick - absolutely! …R

Thanks for the information Roger!

That helps understand Gibson's decision to make the Flatiron purchase when they had the Kalamazoo F-5L that you helped develop in the first place! Have you ever had the chance sit down with those two mandolins and compare them in one setting? if so what were your impressions?

[siminoff]

Bernie - thanks and good to hear from you. … Yes, I have had the chance to compare Steve's mandolins with both an original F5 and a 1978 F5L (a fellow band member has Flatiron F5 and we've had the opportunity to do side-by-side evals). Steve did a wonderful job making F5s but there were some differences in interpretation of the neck profiles, soundboard and backboard graduations and contours, and his tuning process was different from what we did on the F5Ls. This is not a statement of good or bad - merely an observation. Aside from these physical differences, I'd prefer not to publicly critique his or any other luthier's work. Flatiron mandolins hold a very important place in the F5 resurgence, and Steve and the makers there have my respect. …R