John Reischman's Loar - something odd

[retroman]

I happened to watch a YouTube with John Reischman discussing his Loar - I'm sure this has been watched by many. I noticed something odd at about the 2:16 mark: a close-up of the bridge shows the bottom two pairs of strings (G and D) as different guages, ie. as if they are an octave apart (like a 12 string guitar). Other views do not show this, so I assume somebody editted in the wrong image.

It raises a question though - does anyone actually do this with their strings?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvB2PxEsGbM

[Loudloar]

I played his mandolin less than 2 years ago and it had nothing like that. I know for sure that he uses a standard set of D'Addario J74 medium strings. I've not heard of anyone using mixed gauge strings and not sure why someone would want to do it.

Steve

[barry]

The octave strung mandolin shown at 2:19 also has an unbound pickguard. It's not the Reischman Loar.

[sunburst]

Looks like mandola compensation too. Don't know where they got the picture, but it's an obvious mistake, or one of those things where some editor figured nobody would notice the difference.

[Glassweb]

John uses J75's on his Loar (told me himself here in B'ham at a concert) and does indeed use mixed pairs on his Smart mandola... must be the dola in that particular image...

[Charles E.]

Howard Armstrong and other blues players used that stringing on mandolin. Mike Compton used it on his Duff mandola.

[Paul Kotapish]

I've never seen John split the octaves on his mandolin. A number of players do, however.

Joe Craven (who played both mandolin and percussion in Grisman's band and with the the Garcia/Grisman band for years) often strings his mandolin that way. Sounds great.

As noted above, Howard Armstrong (Martin, Bogan & Armstrong) did, too. He called it "mosquito" tuning. I think Steve James does so on occasion, too, and I've heard that it was a fairly common tuning among black rural string bands.

[Andrew B. Carlson]

Yeah, his Loar wasn't strung like that in December when I played it. But I'd love to try stringing mine with octaves.

[doc holiday]

When watching the video...nowhere else does it show that shot & there is lots of close up footage of the fretboard with normal mandolin strings. I sat across from John Reischman at the Nimblefingers Workshop 10 days ago & his Loar was strung normally. I bet they cut in the mandola bridge footage..

[Cheryl Watson]

That is John's Lawrence Smart A-shaped f-hole mandola with the bass strings strung in octaves.

[JeffD]

I have seen folks split octaves on the G and D strings. On bowl backs. For playing ragtime. Its makes a cool sound.

[Mandobart]

When I was at a festival and workshop with John in June it was all straight strung, I don't remember exactly but I think he said J74's when the question came up. I've tried octave pairs on all my mando family instruments. Love it on the mandocello, OM and mandola. I don't really care for it on the mandolin, though.

[Tom Smart]

That is John's Lawrence Smart A-shaped f-hole mandola with the bass strings strung in octaves.

Does anyone know what string gauges would be appropriate? I might like to try that on my mandola.

[JeffD]

What these folks I know do is purchase two regular packs of strings, what gauge and style they are used to. So they string an A string with the G string, and tune it to G, and string an E string with the D and tune it to D.

[dan in va]

It sure would be interesting to know what the string gauges are, especially the octave strings.

[Timbofood]

I remember Carl Martin playing with octaves back in about '76-'77. I have always kind of wanted to have a second mandolin strung up that way for the cool effect, Carl was so much fun to watch, interesting guitar player too!

[BradKlein]

Statman strung his mandola that way -octaves on the C and G strings way back when I took lessons with him in the 1980s. It was a nice sound although at the time, I was happy when he went to standard tuning, which made it easier for me to follow along.

[RobP]

I love how he lets people play it... I got to play it at a lesson I had with him one time at a festival. What a great guy. What fantastic tone!

[Astro]

What these folks I know do is purchase two regular packs of strings, what gauge and style they are used to. So they string an A string with the G string, and tune it to G, and string an E string with the D and tune it to D.

That is interesting, thanks. But that isnt really splitting octaves is it ? Isnt it just using lighter strings on half the heavy courses and tuning them the same in that case ? Or are they actually tuning them an octave up ? Seems that would be a lot of tension there. ? I would have thought you would need a much lighter string for that ?

I would like to try some of these experiments on the one hand, but on the other hand what a pain to be spending sooo much time changing out strings half course by half course just to see if you like it. I think I'm just too lazy. Every time I change strings I get bloody finger tips and a soar back and wrestle upside down trying to see through the edge of my bifocals half the time. I hate every second of it.

[Bernie Daniel]

Does anyone know what string gauges would be appropriate? I might like to try that on my mandola.

You are going for an octave so the frequency of the higher string is 2X the lower string -- so ball parking it, if you want the same tension and an octave higher pitch then use a string of half the diameter of the lower pitched one.
For example, if you are using J-74's with a G string of 0.040" then use about 0.020" for you higher pitch of the set etc.

The D is 0.026" so you'll have to go with 0.013" which will be plain not wound but that should still work out OK.

[Phil Goodson]

That is interesting, thanks. But that isnt really splitting octaves is it ? Isnt it just using lighter strings on half the heavy courses and tuning them the same in that case ? Or are they actually tuning them an octave up ? Seems that would be a lot of tension there. ? I would have thought you would need a much lighter string for that ?...

Yes. One of each pair is tuned an octave up with light strings.
If you read what Jeff said, he said exactly THAT.

[Paul Kotapish]

That is interesting, thanks. But that isnt really splitting octaves is it ? Isnt it just using lighter strings on half the heavy courses and tuning them the same in that case ? Or are they actually tuning them an octave up ? Seems that would be a lot of tension there. ? I would have thought you would need a much lighter string for that

In Joe Craven's case--and with the other folks I seen doing this--it's definitely an octave split--like on a 12-string guitar or the low strings on a bouzouki or the way some folks do on their OMs.

I loved hearing it on Joe's mandolin and tried it myself with a .014 on the low G and a .01 on the D and it worked fine with no noticeable stress or tension. Those same strings are taking even more tension on the higher courses, so it's not a big deal as far as I can tell.

The sound is worth checking out--particularly nice for nonbluegrass melodies--but it isn't something I'd do on a regular basis, and not so great for four-string chop chords.

[A 4]

What these folks I know do is purchase two regular packs of strings, what gauge and style they are used to. So they string an A string with the G string, and tune it to G, and string an E string with the D and tune it to D.

I was changing strings anyway this weekend, and had started to accumulate a few extra sets (I often buy a set when I go into a music store, if I am just going in to browse), so I tried this out. Oval hole mandolin.

Pretty neat. It had a sound that reminded me of the guitar sound from the Byrds. Maybe that was Roger Mcguinn? Anyway, kind of a jangly sort of sound. Distinctive when picking notes, but less so/not at all with chords. Tremelo was harder for me. I also found that in some passages, I have not been hitting both strings of a pair!

What I did not like was moving from the octave pairs on the G and D strings onto the A and E pairs. It's a pretty different sound, and I would like that octave sound on the higher notes, too. That seems pretty hard to do, but maybe an E string paired with A, but to really high tension to get the octave A? Maybe I should just learn to play up the neck.

My wife liked it quite a bit, which is a nice bonus.

[Paul Kotapish]

A 4, I don't think it's realistic to get an octave pair on the top two (A and E) courses of a mandolin. You could possibly try something super light (.008) for the high A and you might get it to pitch without breaking, but I'd be amazed if you could get a high E to work.

I string the low G/D) courses of my octave mandolin in octaves and I used to string A course in octaves, using a .009, and even that was pretty dicey and prone to breaking if I played hard. Now I just accept the change in timbre on the higher courses.

[Mandobart]

You are going for an octave so the frequency of the higher string is 2X the lower string -- so ball parking it, if you want the same tension and an octave higher pitch then use a string of half the diameter of the lower pitched one.
For example, if you are using J-74's with a G string of 0.040" then use about 0.020" for you higher pitch of the set etc.

The D is 0.026" so you'll have to go with 0.013" which will be plain not wound but that should still work out OK.

Bernie is correct. That is exactly how I've done it on 5 instruments.