Terminology?

[Sweetpea44]

If one had a 5 course instrument tuned CGDAE, with a scale length of 25.5" .... would that be considered a cittern or 5 course mandocello? Are the terms mandocello and cittern interchangeable if the same scale? Just curious.

[foldedpath]

Since the mandocello is historically part of a mandolin orchestra, taking both the name and purpose from the 4-string cello in the stringed instrument family, I wouldn't call this a 5-course mandocello. I'd call it a cittern. Especially at that scale length.

[Sweetpea44]

Thanks for the response. What is a typical scale length for a mandocello? Would a cittern mainly be used for Irish/folk music (ie -- Beth Patterson)?

[Jacob]

These are also called Liuto cantabile.

[margora]

"If one had a 5 course instrument tuned CGDAE, with a scale length of 25.5" .... would that be considered a cittern or 5 course mandocello? Are the terms mandocello and cittern interchangeable if the same scale? Just curious."

A five-course instrument tuned CGDAE with the E at 8va treble (in other words, the range of the guitar) is the "liuto cantabile" or equivalently the "liuto moderno". The origins of this instrument are in late 19th century Italy, and its most important proponent (in terms of design and construction, and composition and performance) was Raffaele Calace. The liuto moderno was often used in
the so-called "classical quartet", which was modeled on the string quartet, although the mandoloncello (as it is known in Europe) was also used. The liuto was also commonly used in Italian mandolin orchestras at the time, again with the proviso that the mandoloncello was an alternative.

To my knowledge, the term "cittern" was never used to describe this instrument, which also to my knowledge, was rarely found in the US, except perhaps in some Italian circles (the American mandolinist Samuel Adelstein owned a liuto, a Vinaccia, which he got in Italy). Americans are in the habit of imagining that Gibson invented the "mandocello" and, for that matter, the alto (CGDA) version of the mandola, both of which are incorrect -- these instruments existed in Italy before Gibson ever made one.

The classical version of the liuto moderno intended for solo performance (Calace wrote several preludes for this instrument) has a scale length of 61 cm, or approximately 24 inches. Larger versions of the liuto with longer scale lengths, such as the range you are speaking of, were made for orchestral work. I recently had Walt Kuhlman make me a liuto moderno with a scale length of 24 inches (a very fine instrument) which I use in performing with the New American Mandolin Ensemble. I personally think 24 inches is the right scale for this instrument.

If you are interested in correct historical definitions of mandolin family instruments, I recommend the appendix to Paul Spark's book THE CLASSICAL MANDOLIN.

"Since the mandocello is historically part of a mandolin orchestra, taking both the name and purpose from the 4-string cello in the stringed instrument family, I wouldn't call this a 5-course mandocello. I'd call it a cittern. Especially at that scale length."

See above.

[Eddie Sheehy]

Modern terminology as it's used around here:
Cittern describes a 10-stringed instrument - usually either CGDAE or GDAEB (and dropped tuning versions therof) - the CGDAE Citterns are long-scale, the GDAEB are short scale.

10-string instruments are also referred as "10-string thingie" where thingie is interchangeable as Mandocello, Bouzouki, Octave Mandolin, Mandola, Mandolin...

In truth, A Rose By Another Name is still a Rose...
.

[Sweetpea44]

Thank you for the responses .... what tuning is your liuto moderno in? Is CGDAE the typical tuning?

[Eddie Sheehy]

Some players tune the C course to D - if the C tuning is sloppy. I use my 10-string Cittern to cover as a dual Mandocello and Octave mandolin.

[margora]

"what tuning is your liuto moderno in? Is CGDAE the typical tuning?"

CGDAE is the standard tuning for the liuto cantabile (liuto moderno). I know of no other tuning used for this instrument, at least in classical mandolin, unless a scordatura is called for (for example, in the 5th Bach cello suite).

[zoukboy]

The use of the term "cittern" for modern bouzouki-derived and mandolin-derived instruments has been confusing since Stefan Sobell started using it in the 70s. At first Stefan used the term for his short scale instruments regardless of the number of strings (8 or 10), while also making a long scale instrument he called a "bouzouki" (again, whether 8 or 10 strings).

In the 80s as more and more US-based musicians bought instruments from Stefan (I was one of them), and with the release of Gerald Trimble's "First Flight" LP in 1983, the term was used more and more for 10 string mando-thingies regardless of scale length. This is the way most players in the US use the term today.

[Sweetpea44]

My first guess was that 'cittern' had something to do with it being 5 courses/10 strings. But, didn't know if tuning made a difference or scale length.

[foldedpath]

The use of the term "cittern" for modern bouzouki-derived and mandolin-derived instruments has been confusing since Stefan Sobell started using it in the 70s. At first Stefan used the term for his short scale instruments regardless of the number of strings (8 or 10), while also making a long scale instrument he called a "bouzouki" (again, whether 8 or 10 strings).

In the 80s as more and more US-based musicians bought instruments from Stefan (I was one of them), and with the release of Gerald Trimble's "First Flight" LP in 1983, the term was used more and more for 10 string mando-thingies regardless of scale length. This is the way most players in the US use the term today.

Exactly. There may be historical precedent for Liuto Cantabile, but "Cittern" has entered the popular vernacular for 10 string mando-thingies among both luthiers and players.

For a while, I was thinking about getting one to augment the stable, and every luthier I was considering buying from, called it a Cittern. I know there are other luthiers who sell Liuto Cantabiles, as such, so I guess it's a question of whether you're coming from the Classical world or the extended Folk instrument world.

[zoukboy]

Exactly. There may be historical precedent for Liuto Cantabile, but "Cittern" has entered the popular vernacular for 10 string mando-thingies among both luthiers and players.

For a while, I was thinking about getting one to augment the stable, and every luthier I was considering buying from, called it a Cittern. I know there are other luthiers who sell Liuto Cantabiles, as such, so I guess it's a question of whether you're coming from the Classical world or the extended Folk instrument world.

I think that is exactly right.

[Eddie Sheehy]

Yep, 10-string thingies...

[Sweetpea44]

Thanks .... was just curious .... with all the different scale lengths and tunings out there for instruments, things can get a little confusing.

[Pete Braccio]

Call it what ever you like. No matter what you call it, someone will always tell you that you're calling it by the wrong name.

[Beanzy]

I always call them Liuto Cantabile......unless I shorten it to Liuto, which it isn't but it's easier to say... so I'm normally wrong as soon as I refer to one.
I've noticed many of the Italian luthiers referring to it as a 5 course mandoloncello which is sensible if verbose.
Cittern always conjours up a more medieval instrument for me so I don't like using that as it's like treading on retro toes.

We could try to come up with a name for use here on the Mandolin Cafe and see if it sticks in the real world?
Could be good for a laugh anyway.