Wrist Motion When Using Tremolo

[Jon Hall]

I try to practice tremolo on a daily basis. I have always attempted the motion that is described as shaking water from your or shaking out a match. Since I've recently shortened my strap, my mandolin doesn't sit in my lap. Because my right forearm is resting on the edge of the top (not the bridge) the mandolin shakes some when I'm playing a quick, measured tremolo or if I'm attempting to play something fast.

A friend of mine, who also plays the fiddle, uses the same motion playing a tremolo as she does playing the fiddle. The wrist motion is as if your turning a door knob back and forth. Her mandolin doesn't shake at all when she plays tremolo. I tried the technique and couldn't do anything with it. It almost seemed impossible. I'm sure I could learn to do it if I invested the time but I don't know that I want make that commitment.

Do any of you use this "door knob" motion?

[bart mcneil]

It is difficult for me to understand why the mando is vibrating to such an extent as you describe. I too have spent lots of time practicing tremolo and finally, after many moons, achieved a decent and effortless tremolo. It took well over a year if I recall.

I wonder if you are allowing your hand to move in too great an arc. I found that the less movement of the pick, the better for a consistent tremolo by the forearm being close to stationery with only a slight movement at the wrist. Considering that the majority of tremolo is done on one string (pair) very little movement of the wrist is necessary and the pick itself need only move perhaps 3/16th of an inch back and forth approximately. I wonder if you are moving the pick back and forth a greater distance than necessary.

But I must say that tremolo was a long and demanding skill to master and for much of the learning process I felt awkward and incompetent as you are undoubtedly experiencing, I am guessing that things will work out for you in time and much practice and your instrument will calm down.

I play seated almost all the time so I do not use a strap unless (for some reason) I am forced to stand and play. Even then I rarely use a strap unless I am using my resonator mando which is really really heavy.

All I can say in encouragement is that it will come, with lots and lots of practice. Maybe at this point you are being over critical of your technique and as you develop some mastery of tremolo it will self-correct to a more efficient technique. But I certainly empathize with your dilemma.

[Cheryl Watson]

I play (and teach) tremolo as a rubbing of the strings (as opposed to a fast picking swing stroke). I use a combination of wrist and forearm motion and I teach it on slow tunes first. The "shaking water from your wrist" would be more like what I would use to describe how to chop, not tremolo. You do not want to plant your forearm firmly on the edge of the top to the point where you cannot move your hand and arm up the neck and back down towards the bridge in order to get different tones. It can gently rest there on the top edge (or armrest) but it needs to be freed up to move. I also discourage any "door knob" motion with the picking hand. I've seen a few videos (on You Tube and other social media) that give very bad advice on how to play tremolo. That said, some non-standard techniques work for some and not for others. If something is not working, of course, you need to change your technique.

Look at this video of Chris Thile's tremolo on the Tennessee Waltz. You'll need to forward through the Bach at the beginning to get to it. The view is from the correct angle to observe his tremolo technique.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uf9A5RF96kg

[Jon Hall]

Bart/Cheryl

I appreciate your replies. I've been working for some months on a measured tremolo. I've been using Don Julin's guidelines of: 32nd notes for up 80 bpm and divide the 1/4 beat into 6 for 80 to 100 bpm and 1/16th notes for faster than 100 bpm. Some of tempos result in a very fast tremolo. Because of the problem I was having playing tremolo while standing (performance) I shortened the strap so it would be at the same height whether I am sitting or standing. The shaking occurs when I'm playing 76 -78 bpm with 32nd notes and 94 - 100 bpm when I divide the beat into 6. The same shaking occurs when I'm playing "Blackberry Blossom" in 2/4 time at about 116 to 120 bpm playing 1/16 notes.

I don't plant my forearm or my pinky because I allow it to move when I'm changing strings.

I'm guessing that it will take more practice. My tremolo has improved when standing.

[bayAreaDude]

I do wrist only. The doorknob approach sounds like it would change pick angle and hence tone. Is the shaking really causing a problem?

[Mike Bunting]

Bart/Cheryl

I appreciate your replies. I've been working for some months on a measured tremolo. I've been using Don Julin's guidelines of: 32nd notes for up 80 bpm and divide the 1/4 beat into 6 for 80 to 100 bpm and 1/16th notes for faster than 100 bpm. Some of tempos result in a very fast tremolo. Because of the problem I was having playing tremolo while standing (performance) I shortened the strap so it would be at the same height whether I am sitting or standing. The shaking occurs when I'm playing 76 -78 bpm with 32nd notes and 94 - 100 bpm when I divide the beat into 6. The same shaking occurs when I'm playing "Blackberry Blossom" in 2/4 time at about 116 to 120 bpm playing 1/16 notes.

I don't plant my forearm or my pinky because I allow it to move when I'm changing strings.

I'm guessing that it will take more practice. My tremolo has improved when standing.

It sounds like perhaps your arm is tensing as the speed increases.

[JeffD]

If door know motion is upper arm twist, shaking out a match is wrist movement, then I appear to use a combination of the two. More wrist if I am tremoloing over a double stop. Its hard to tell you what I do, because I don't think about it. It looks to me to be a combination of wrist movement and some upper arm twist. No movement of the elbow joint.

I don't have a conscious difference in technique between playing a very fast riff and tremolo, except the tremolo is faster. I used to think it was entirely unmetered, but guess it depends, sometimes it is exactly so many picks per beat.

Its hard to tell because I don't slow my tremolo down when I play the whole tune slower, but I don't lose timing when I tremolo either.

[AlanN]

Funny, the 'door knob' is specifically a no-no, per Robert Bowlin in his Twin Mandolin Workshop book (excellent tunes and lines, horrid tab in the book). One person's nectar is another's poison.

[Beanzy]

I went for playing with no strap sitting or standing and had to figure that out too.
Things that helped me were;
-moving the mandolin so the tail end was more central to my chest.
-making sure the mandolin was angled well out from my body
-keeping the tail-piece above my forearm so the arm is in line with the strings (this seems quite high at first but is really relaxed and stops most off the mandolin movement)
-practicing tremolo while moving over the fretboard at 12th, end and bridge
-practicing sudden starts/stops and piano/forte tremolo
-only moving enough to cover the courses being tremoloed.
-tremoloing whole chords is good practice to make sure you'really relaxed.

Some of those may help you as you've moved the mandolin up higher.

[bart mcneil]

I found the tensing of the arm and wrist to be very difficult to overcome. I could sustain a pretty good tremolo until I had to switch to chords or straight picking and then I would tense up big time. At some point after a year or so playing tremolo I realized that I was no longer tensing up... Go figure. I can now move in or out of tremolo at the slightest whim and it is simply part of my vocabulary as a player...

[Jon Hall]

Thanks for the replies.

Mike: Ever since I began consistently working on tremolo, I've tried to avoid tension. It is difficult to relax when playing 32nd notes at 78 bpm. I'll keep trying. I'm not giving up.

Beanzy: Good suggestions. I'll try all of them and see if they help.

[crisscross]

"It's possible to play tremolo from the wrist, but you'll get more dynamic range if you keep the wrist straight and move your ellbow"
writes Simon Mayor in his book "Mastering the mandolin".
Especially domra players seem to take this advice to heart http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iweNtcrfPic

[Mandobart]

One thing I picked up from a John Reischman workshop is to angle the pick slightly for tremolo; that is instead of hitting the string full contact with the pick where the flat side of the pick is mostly parallel with the string, angle it (either way, according to John, whichever is most comfortable or natural feeling).

[kudzugypsy]

if you are doing the proper "shaking out a match" technique - then you shouldn't have either tension or the mandolin moving at all. i'm guessing a little here, but check these points out.
1) you are using a pointed pick, try a more rounded style pick for mandolin
2) you are holding the pick to tight - most players have a death grip on the pick and the tremolo can't 'breath'. hold it like it feels like it will fall out (and it may...so pick it up and try again). when you really start to nail the tremolo you can feel the pick give a little.
3) it sounds like you have more 'forearm' in the tremolo than you need - thats where you start to 'lock up' trying to go faster thus moving the mandolin too.

"It's possible to play tremolo from the wrist, but you'll get more dynamic range if you keep the wrist straight and move your ellbow"
writes Simon Mayor in his book "Mastering the mandolin".

everyone does it differently - but IMO forearm tremolo will never be as smooth or fast as a wrist based tremolo...yeah, i know Sam Bush does it, but he is Sam Bush

[bingoccc]

For what it's worth...
My forearm sits covering the tail piece so my forearm is quite close to being in line with the strings. I use a strap and the mandolin sits on my chest.
I use a slight wrist motion with some forearm twist.
A good bevel on the pick helps.
I got over the idea that my tremolo had to be lightening fast. Staying in tempo with an okay speed sounds a lot better than when my focus is trying to make the strings smoke.

[Ultra Turtle]

I use a technique for flatpicking that I also apply to mandolin. When I feel my fingertips resting in my palm, and keep my thumb joints relaxed and straight, I'm able to keep everything relaxed: wrist, forearm, elbow, shoulder. For me, it works like magic at keeping everything relaxed.

[JeffD]

I did a cell phone video selfie of me playing, to try and see what it is I do for tremolo. (No I am not going to post it.)

It seems it is mostly wrist. Shaking out the match type motion. To do that there is a little forearm twist, but as I see it is not a rotation as in a door knob opening, just a necessary accommodation to the wrist movement. Again, no elbow joint movement at all.

[JeffD]

Nope. I was wrong. I am amazed at how much I don't know about my own playing. My little video selfie was too close and didn't show the whole arm.

I had someone else video me, and clearly its

elbow: 0%

doorknob twist: 75%

shaking out the match: 25%

Clearly.

[Flatland]

Cheryl Watson (I saw your uncle 'Doc' play about a hundred years ago in Marin County... it changed my life) watching a video such as you post is the only way I ever lernt this. Even then, it took years before I even figured out what I was actually looking at, the subtle nature of mandolin muscles being so different from guitar muscles. It takes a much more gentle hand than I ever thought... and a written description did not help me much. When I first started playing 'tremolo' I rattled the cups in the cupboard. Now when I do it, the dog doesn't even look up from her peaceful slumber. Not nearly to Chris Thile's gentle touch though... years to go.

[lowtone2]

Katerina has a pretty smooth tremelo. Mostly, if not all, forearm.

[DavidKOS]

Forearm tremolo certainly has it uses, as does wrist tremolo, or a combination of all.

And there's one other technique I refer to as "circular picking", which is almost completely a movement of the thumb and first finger holding the pick. I learned it form older Italian/American guitar and mandolin players, and since the actual amount of movement needed for tremolo is small, this can be accomplished with such motions.

Most of the info I found was for guitar, but it's the same on both instruments:

http://www.guitar9.com/columnist87.html

http://circlepicking.blogspot.com/

http://www2.gibson.com/News-Lifestyl...r-Picking.aspx

And from our archive

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...A-BREAKTHROUGH!

" It is called the Circle Technique and is taught by Mike Compton is his workshops."

Anyway, this works really well on mandolin.

[DavidKOS]

Forearm tremolo certainly has it uses, as does wrist tremolo, or a combination of all.

And there's one other technique I refer to as "circular picking", which is almost completely a movement of the thumb and first finger holding the pick. I learned it form older Italian/American guitar and mandolin players, and since the actual amount of movement needed for tremolo is small, this can be accomplished with such motions.

Most of the info I found was for guitar, but it's the same on both instruments:

http://www.guitar9.com/columnist87.html

http://circlepicking.blogspot.com/

http://www2.gibson.com/News-Lifestyl...r-Picking.aspx

And from our archive

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...A-BREAKTHROUGH!

" It is called the Circle Technique and is taught by Mike Compton is his workshops."

Unfortunately, the 'circle' technique may just be one of the subtle nuances in mandolin playing that is really not quite fully understood until you accidentally stumble on how to execute it on your own. Or maybe that's just me? I've been reading these articles by Marilynn Mair which seem to allude to the circle technique, as well.

http://www.marilynnmair.com/articles...ick-technique/
http://www.marilynnmair.com/articles...iting-tremolo/

Anyway, this works really well on mandolin.

[CHASAX]

Tyler Jackson knows tremolo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCkpcBVPghg