help understanding (dorian) key

[RickPick]

So I've downloaded the sheet music for Tuttle's Reel from www.traditionalmusic.co.uk. (http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/fo...ttles_reel.pdf) There are no sharps or flats in the key signature, and sheet music from a slightly different version of Tuttle's Reel also shows no sharps or flats, but it says the tune is in D dorian (The main melody notes are exactly what they are in the other piece of sheet music). If I go to the web to see the scale for D dorian, I get what looks exactly like the scale I normally play for (plain-old, everyday, not minor....) D major, except that the scale starts on the low D note (which is where I would probably start the D major scale anyway). The D dorian scale includes F# and C#, not F natural and C natural as the key signature would suggest. In fact, given my functional but rudimentary understanding of keys for country/folk/bluegrass music, I would expect music with no sharps or flats in the key signature to be in the key of C or A minor!!! Going back to the traditionalmusic.co.uk sheet music, it also includes mandolin tabulature for the song, and it clearly shows that when the notes on the musical staff call for a C, a C# is played (A string, 4th fret). Without getting my fuzzy brain unnecessarily dizzy, can anyone explain this in simple terms? Or is there some major concept that jazz musicians and classical musicians would want to understand, but I don't need to (since I've been playing stringed instruments for over a half-century)? I'm kinda confused about something I thought I understood a bit, and I'm KINDA curious about understanding it better. Thoughts??

[bayAreaDude]

So I've downloaded the sheet music for Tuttle's Reel from www.traditionalmusic.co.uk. (http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/fo...ttles_reel.pdf) There are no sharps or flats in the key signature, and sheet music from a slightly different version of Tuttle's Reel also shows no sharps or flats, but it says the tune is in D dorian (The main melody notes are exactly what they are in the other piece of sheet music). If I go to the web to see the scale for D dorian, I get what looks exactly like the scale I normally play for (plain-old, everyday, not minor....) D major, except that the scale starts on the low D note (which is where I would probably start the D major scale anyway). The D dorian scale includes F# and C#, not F natural and C natural as the key signature would suggest. In fact, given my functional but rudimentary understanding of keys for country/folk/bluegrass music, I would expect music with no sharps or flats in the key signature to be in the key of C or A minor!!! Going back to the traditionalmusic.co.uk sheet music, it also includes mandolin tabulature for the song, and it clearly shows that when the notes on the musical staff call for a C, a C# is played (A string, 4th fret). Without getting my fuzzy brain unnecessarily dizzy, can anyone explain this in simple terms? Or is there some major concept that jazz musicians and classical musicians would want to understand, but I don't need to (since I've been playing stringed instruments for over a half-century)? I'm kinda confused about something I thought I understood a bit, and I'm KINDA curious about understanding it better. Thoughts??

D Dorian contains the exact same notes as the C Ionian/Major - no sharps or flats.

From the perspective of D major/ionian, dorian flats the 3rd and 7th scale degrees, giving you F and C, instead of the normal F# and C# you have in D major/ionian.

[Phil Goodson]

....If I go to the web to see the scale for D dorian, I get what looks exactly like the scale I normally play for (plain-old, everyday, not minor....) D major, except that the scale starts on the low D note (which is where I would probably start the D major scale anyway). The D dorian scale includes F# and C#, not F natural and C natural as the key signature would suggest. ..... Thoughts??

My thought is that you're going to the wrong place on the web.

[RickPick]

Philphool -- You might be on to something! On a Mandolin Cafe post [http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...-Tuttles-Reel], the tune is said to be in the key of Dm. The ABC site [http://abcnotation.com/tunePage?a=tr.../ireland/1596] says D dorian, as does thesession.org site [http://thesession.org/tunes/528]. Yet the www.traditonalmusic.co.uk, while it remains mum about the key, shows no sharps or flats in the key signature, but clearly shows in the accompanying mandolin tab that both the F and the C are to be played as sharps. From what bayAreaDude says, Tuttle's Reel wouldn't be in D dorian, then, would it? (since it has the sharps)???? Is this a simple matter of Web information being wrong?

[Jim Broyles]

D Dorian would have no sharps or flats in the key signature. D Dorian also has an F natural and a C natural. I realize that those two sentences mean the same thing. I just wanted to emphasize the point. Look up the sheet music for "So What" by Miles Davis. D Dorian. No symbols in the key signature. Any information stating that there are F# and C# in D Dorian is incorrect.

[Jim Broyles]

Note: You should learn the Dorian mode independently and learn the intervals of the scale, but a quick way to arrive at a Dorian scale is to play from re to re in any major key.

[RickPick]

Gee, you guys are harsh! You mean I can't believe everything I read on the WWW? Thanks for helping me out. It looks like I wasn't as confused as I'd perhaps thought -- just misinformed.

[belbein]

The only thing I know about this at all is that Dorian is a mode, not a key.

But what in the name of heaven that means ... I have no idea. And every time someone tries to explain it to me, it's like listening to someone trying to explain German verb declensions. I guess I'm doomed to only play Old Time.

[Jon Hall]

The way I understand it; scales came from modes. This is rather simplistic but you can either play a mode as you would a scale, with melody and chords or you can use a specific mode to improvise over a specific chord. Using it as a source of melody and a chord progression is what the OP was inquiring about.

[Jacob]

[hattio]

Everyone is correct that D dorian is the same as C major ( and I'm disappointed because this is finally something I know and it was posted before I had a chance...ah well). One thing to add, Dorian tunes will often have chord progressions that go from i to VII. In other words Dm to C or Am to G or Em to D. When this is your final chord change, it will often be Dorian.

[ombudsman]

"Key" has become an awkward and imprecise term for quite a while now. Something as simple as a 12 bar blues is immediately confusing to a beginner if they expect diatonic music in one key.

Any scale can be broken out into modes, any mode of any scale can be used as a scale, and any scale can be used as a tonality. But more often than not "modes" refers to the modes of the major scale, or sometimes the modes of melodic and harmonic minor.

I wouldn't read too much into notation for music with a mode of major as the tonic. There is no standard. "So What" is a famous tune, but the published sheet music may not have resembled how the tune was originally written, and the more common fake book versions are further removed from legitimacy. In any case it's just one tune.

Personally I like the method of using the relative major of a ii as the key for notation of music in a dorian tonality because dorian is so popular, but the downside is that it breaks the conventions of the tonic being either the major or aeolian relative minor, relative to the key signature. There's something to be said for a tune that sounds like it's over a D root, immediately making that clear. This isn't really a problem for "So What" because it's such a famous tune, but if you're putting originals in front of people on a bandstand using the same technique, you're going to have to do some explaining, and/or you're going to have some weird sounding beginnings.

For the OP, I looked at the PDF of Tuttle's Reel on that site. The tab fret numbers for those notes are just wrong, but the standard notation above it is correct (at least as far as it being in D dorian - I don't know the tune, not sure if it's accurate otherwise), it shows C natural and F natural. Presumably the tab was made with software that wasn't configured correctly to handle this scenario, or it was human error.

[Jim Broyles]

But more often than not "modes" refers to the modes of the major scale, or sometimes the modes of melodic and harmonic minor.

I don't know about that. At one time I thought that, but since I've been hanging around the Theory Forum over at TDPRI, those guys have convinced me that modes stand for themselves and composing and/or soloing in a mode is irrespective of it's Ionian mate. They advocate learning the intervals between the degrees of each mode, not relying on (for example) "E to E in C" to describe E Phrygian.

[ombudsman]

I don't know about that. At one time I thought that, but since I've been hanging around the Theory Forum over at TDPRI, those guys have convinced me that modes stand for themselves and composing and/or soloing in a mode is irrespective of it's Ionian mate. They advocate learning the intervals between the degrees of each mode, not relying on (for example) "E to E in C" to describe E Phrygian.

I totally agree with that, but that's not what I was saying. I'm saying if someone is talking about modes, most likely they are talking about something from ionian through locrian, you rarely hear anyone talking about or using modes of altered scales, and I've only heard jazz players refer to modes of harmonic and melodic minor although they are used in classical music as well.

[Tom C]

Isn't dorean mode played by flattening the 3rd and 7th? Which I guess in D, you end up with all the notes in the C scale?

[ombudsman]

Isn't dorean mode played by flattening the 3rd and 7th? Which I guess in D, you end up with all the notes in the C scale?

that's right, they have the same notes.

As we were saying above, it's more powerful to get to know each of the modes of major thoroughly in their own right rather than thinking of them as modified versions of major, but you are correct. And if you were going to prioritize them, dorian would be high on the list, after ionian, aeolian, and mixolydian, which you probably already know as very common scales.

It might be more practical to think of dorian as like a natural minor scale (aka aeolian mode) except with a major 6th.

[JeffD]

I don't know about that. At one time I thought that, but since I've been hanging around the Theory Forum over at TDPRI, those guys have convinced me that modes stand for themselves and composing and/or soloing in a mode is irrespective of it's Ionian mate. They advocate learning the intervals between the degrees of each mode, not relying on (for example) "E to E in C" to describe E Phrygian.

Yea, I think that makes things much easier. Knowing that you can generate the modes out of a major scale, seems to me to be a curiosity of the system more than a useful piece of information. Because you don't generate them that way.

[ombudsman]

Yea, I think that makes things much easier. Knowing that you can generate the modes out of a major scale, seems to me to be a curiosity of the system more than a useful piece of information. Because you don't generate them that way.

Well, you can if you like. Some people practice cycling through all the modes of a scale. You can incorporate thinking of the sound of the notes relative to the tonic, or not, or alternate between them, as you do this. It's an effective way to learn the fingerboard very well and to internalize the structure of a scale (any scale, but particularly major/ionian).

It would be hard to learn the modes of major without at least starting out thinking of the notes relative to major, or in a diatonic key (which is another way of saying the same thing). Over time the modes become familiar as scales. People retain information in their own ways, but I think it would be hard for me to learn 6 scales in all keys (assuming I already knew major) while ignoring the fact that they have those close relationship due to them being permutations of the same set of notes. If there is anything special about modes, it's that relationship.

The power in using them, to me, is not just to use them as scales but to also hear them as harmonized triads or seventh chords for the I to vii in each key and to see the way the full scales relate to those chords. Then you can hear why common dominant progressions work and how the context of a IV or a vii chord tells you the difference between a #4 and a b5, for example.

[bayAreaDude]

...
The power in using them, to me, is not just to use them as scales but to also hear them as harmonized triads or seventh chords for the I to vii in each key and to see the way the full scales relate to those chords. Then you can hear why common dominant progressions work and how the context of a IV or a vii chord tells you the difference between a #4 and a b5, for example.

This is pretty much how modes are presented in a jazz context and from my experience the most practical way of understanding and using them.

[foldedpath]

The power in using them, to me, is not just to use them as scales but to also hear them as harmonized triads or seventh chords for the I to vii in each key and to see the way the full scales relate to those chords. Then you can hear why common dominant progressions work and how the context of a IV or a vii chord tells you the difference between a #4 and a b5, for example.

This is pretty much how modes are presented in a jazz context and from my experience the most practical way of understanding and using them.

I have just enough theory to know what y'all are talking about, but let's back up a step here. The OP was asking about "Tuttle's Reel."

This is an Irish traditional tune.

For anyone deeply invested in Western music theory, Irish traditional music is not just a little weird, but it's deeply weird. It's not based on classical Western Music Theory, although it shares some of the history of European development from Gregorian Chants as well as a bunch of foreign influences.

More than any other music I've played, this genre is the one that likes to fool around with shifting key/mode centers, and sometimes it's hard to find a key center at all! Common session tunes like "Kid on the Mountain" aren't in a key, they shift tonal centers throughout the tune (E dorian to G in this case), and you'd better keep up with the flow. That's why some guitar players backing this kind of music favor tunings like DADGAD, which takes some of the effort out of figuring out the backing chords, because the open tuning has no third!

Anyway, Tuttles may be in an unambiguous D Dorian mode, but listen to how a master fiddler like Kevin Burke plays a set starting with this reel. Notice how the middle section has the B part of the tune shifting to a major feel and then back down to a minor feel, starting around 1:25:



This is the kind of thing that drives guitar backers nuts.

And if you make too strong a major chord statement on the guitar, it drives the fiddle players nuts, because you're messing with their ambiguous tonal centers.

[RickPick]

Thanks, Ombudsmun, for identifying the tab as "just wrong." If I hadn't come across that error as I was trying to learn "Tuttle's Reel," I would never have posted! And yes, foldedpath, after decades of playing country/folk on guitar, I've taken up fiddle and mandolin and Irish music all in one breath. That's where my "understanding" of keys and modes (not sure I'd ever heard the term "modes" previously) started falling to pieces. The Kevin Burke recording listed above is exactly what made me want to learn "Tuttle's Reel". What's been said here about chords and guitars and melodies played on fiddles also makes sense, explaining why decades of guitar playing counts for ZILCH if I were to take my guitar to an Irish session (which I don't). You can't TEACH an old dog new tricks, but that don't mean he doesn't want to LEARN! Thanks for all the helpful and sometimes dizzying discussion. Glad I posted.

[ombudsman]

I have just enough theory to know what y'all are talking about, but let's back up a step here. The OP was asking about "Tuttle's Reel."

This is an Irish traditional tune.

For anyone deeply invested in Western music theory, Irish traditional music is not just a little weird, but it's deeply weird. It's not based on classical Western Music Theory, although it shares some of the history of European development from Gregorian Chants as well as a bunch of foreign influences.

More than any other music I've played, this genre is the one that likes to fool around with shifting key/mode centers, and sometimes it's hard to find a key center at all! Common session tunes like "Kid on the Mountain" aren't in a key, they shift tonal centers throughout the tune (E dorian to G in this case), and you'd better keep up with the flow. That's why some guitar players backing this kind of music favor tunings like DADGAD, which takes some of the effort out of figuring out the backing chords, because the open tuning has no third!

(...)

And if you make too strong a major chord statement on the guitar, it drives the fiddle players nuts, because you're messing with their ambiguous tonal centers.

In my experience, guitarists are seldom what I would describe as heavily invested in Western (classical) music theory...

I can see how an open chord strummer who likes a very strong chord change would be too heavy handed for a tune like this. But that's more a playing style thing than a theory thing. There is theory to handle any number of changes of tonal center, or a lack thereof, if you're into theory.

As far as playing style goes, if you have a jazz background, the changing tonal centers and the need to avoid dense voicings will be familiar. But from what you're saying it sounds like you would need to be careful not to make each chord too harmonically explicit or decisive, which is normally desirable in jazz (even though you may not want to use a lot of notes in the process when you're playing with a group). You'd probably also want to use more static voicings compared to what you would play in jazz.

It's not something I'm very familiar with, but I have done a small handful of original tunes which I would say are influenced by Irish traditional music to some extent, one of which I've been finishing up as a recording so I've been hearing it a lot and it's stuck on the brain. My guitar accompaniment (one of two, but the other one is very simple palm muted chords and is almost a percussion part) uses mostly 2 or 3 distinct notes at a time, up to 4 in one place on the chorus, often with an octave or two added. I used a small bodied guitar and cut the lows out after it was recorded. Between that and the playing, it ended up sounding kind of like a mandolin.

[bayAreaDude]

One thing Irish Trad. and jazz have in common is that sometimes the tonal centers are changing so often that the key signature really only applies to the melody. If you want to play lead that is strays a bit from the melody, you have to keep up with the changing tonal centers and and use the right modes for those contexts. This is where knowing cadences or common progressions really helps in identifying a tonal center.

[JeffD]

"Tuttle's Reel."

This is an Irish traditional tune.

For anyone deeply invested in Western music theory, Irish traditional music is not just a little weird, but it's deeply weird. It's not based on classical Western Music Theory, although it shares some of the history of European development from Gregorian Chants as well as a bunch of foreign influences.

More than any other music I've played, this genre is the one that likes to fool around with shifting key/mode centers, and sometimes it's hard to find a key center at all! Common session tunes like "Kid on the Mountain" aren't in a key, they shift tonal centers throughout the tune (E dorian to G in this case), and you'd better keep up with the flow. That's why some guitar players backing this kind of music favor tunings like DADGAD, which takes some of the effort out of figuring out the backing chords, because the open tuning has no third!

Yes and yes.

[Paleosporin]

I find that the most sensible way to think of these things is key + mode. In other words, the key is the tonic of the scale, or the note that the scale starts on. That information is separate from the mode, which is every other note in the scale. If you have a bunch of must that has the tonic of D, all of that music is in the key of D. Now, that can be D major, D minor, D mixolydian, D dorian, whatever. The constant is that they all share D as the tonic, so in my mind they are in the same key. Mode merely refers to the "color" of the music. One can keep the same tonic and change the color of the music, as it is in The Bunch of Green Rushes at 1:12 in the set that foldedpath posted. It starts in D dorian, but shifts to D mixolydian in the second (starting at 1:21) and third part (1:30). At the end of the third part (1:37), Burke switches back to D dorian to prepare for the top of the tune, which comes at 1:39.

I'd like to counter this comment:

And if you make too strong a major chord statement on the guitar, it drives the fiddle players nuts, because you're messing with their ambiguous tonal centers.

The key (tonality) isn't ambiguous: you could play D and C power chords (which are chords without a third) throughout the entire tune and never be wrong. Triads sound prettier, but you wouldn't be wrong, and D would always be the tonic. It's not modally ambiguous either, since we feel pretty strongly that the music is in either dorian or mixolydian at any given part. However, everybody needs to be on the same page: when the melody is dorian, the chords need to come from the dorian mode also; when the melody is mixolydian, the chords need to come from the mixolydian mode also.

Here is a piece that is modally ambiguous:





The key is F. Modally, there are two different things going on at the same time: in the first system, the right hand is playing F minor while the left hand is playing F lydian. In the second system, it's reversed: right is F lydian, left is F minor. In the last system, it switches back to the original configuration. There is no separation between the modes: minor and lydian are occupying the same space. But they're both built on F, so the key is not what's in question here, just the modality.