Improvising Out of a Chop Chords

[d18daddy]

There is a nice little section out of the "Play Like a Legend-Bill Monroe" book that explains how Bill would improvise solos out of chop chord shapes. Started working on this yesterday morning, then I went to a Wayne Benson Mandolin workshop later in the day and he talked a little bit about it also. For me, this makes sense and is kind of a light bulb moment. Are there any other good sources (books, etc.) that cover this? I would like to delve into it some more.

[Amanda Gregg]

Time to go crazy for Monroe-style. Watch every Mike Compton video, especially of tunes in G like Paddy on the Turnpike.

[Andy B]

Niles Hokkanen's book "Bluegrass Up the Neck" has a discussion of this technique, among others. Another tune that features it extensively is "Monroe's Hornpipe," in A. The key to making it ripple like Bill did is to change notes on the up-pick.

[belbein]

If you look at "Picklosers Guide to Doublestops," at the end, she describes ways of visualizing pentatonic scales from certain doublestops. I'm pretty sure it's the same thing.

[chewbokitz]

I just checked out 'Picklosers Guide' referenced above and it is excellent.
Highly recommended if you are working on figuring out the different double stop patterns. I wish I found this sooner.
Google the title and it comes right up.

[d18daddy]

I agree about pickloser's guide. Some great information there.

[bayAreaDude]

This is really just improvising based on arpeggios - by far the best theory resource I can recommend is Jazz Theory by Levine, don't let the Jazz part scare you - like Big Mon demonstrated, these concepts apply to many genres.

[belbein]

B.A.D., that's not my understanding, but I find this terminology confusing. I thought when people talked about "improvising out of a chord" they really meant using the notes in the scale defined by the chord. If I'm right, "I.O.O.A.C" is related to the scale, and arpeggios are related to the scale, but the two things don't have any direct connection with each other. On the other hand, maybe my understanding is off base, or maybe we're both just "close enough for jazz."

[bayAreaDude]

I've never heard this terminology - if note choice is limited to the notes in a chop chord shape, definitely an arpeggio. If the term means you can play notes not just in the chop chord shape, but also from the scale the chord is constructed from, for instance playing b natural over a C major chop chord shape, I'm familiar with that being called 'playing changes'. I don't know much though.

[Mike Bunting]

If I'm right, "I.O.O.A.C" is related to the scale, and arpeggios are related to the scale, but the two things don't have any direct connection with each other.

How can they they not have a direct connection? The arpeggio is made up of 3 notes of the scale. Go to your jazzmando book and find the D scale where you start the scale with the third finger. When you play that scale you are playing out of the D chop chord. Make up a melody out of those notes. You are improvising out of a chop chord.

[Jon Hall]

I see it as a convenience. If your fingers are already in a chord position, it's nice to whip out kick off, tag or whatever without having to move your hand.

[d18daddy]

Yes, what I am getting at is using the chord position as a home base to solo off of.

[Marc Ferry]

Sometimes I like to crosspick the bottom three notes of a chop chord. It works well as a fill or as part of a solo!

[Mike Bunting]

Yes, what I am getting at is using the chord position as a home base to solo off of.

see #10
The "Home" section here is playing out of a C chop chord.
http://jazzmando.com/FFcP.pdf

[Josh Levine]

Thanks for posting pickloser's guide. I have been trying to fully grasp how to manage doublestops and that has been a revelation.

[JeffD]

I've never heard this terminology - if note choice is limited to the notes in a chop chord shape, definitely an arpeggio. If the term means you can play notes not just in the chop chord shape, but also from the scale the chord is constructed from, for instance playing b natural over a C major chop chord shape, I'm familiar with that being called 'playing changes'. I don't know much though.

I think you are over thinking it. I think it means that when you know a certain chop chords fits here in the tune, you automatically have four notes that you know will work for an improve here in the tune. In any order. Its a good place to start.

[John Flynn]

They way I was taught this technique, it had nothing to do with arpeggios or doublestops. It just had to do with the shape of a chop chord related to the pentatonic scale. So if you take a G chop, you can play a pentatonic scale without changing position and without your fingers having to cover any different frets. The fingers only have to shift from one string to another. So the G penta would go:

1. Third finger, fifth fret, D string (already in place), G note
2. Fourth finger, seventh fret, D string (has to move over one string from the chop) A note
3. First finger, second fred, A string (already in place) B note
4. Third finger, fifth fret, A string (has to move over one string from the chop), D note
5. Fourth finger, seventh fret, A string (has to move over one more string), E note

Then of course the G note for the next penta is already covered by the second finger on the E string in the chop and the first two notes of the next penta are just shifting fingers to the E string on frets they are already covering. In a C-type chop, you do have to get the pinky to fill in where it wasn't in use already. You can also do the next higher penta out of a C-type chop with the same principle.

Of course, with some chops there are doublestop "opportunities" and of course you can always embellish with crosspicking arpeggios, but those were not part of the technique the way I learned it.

I don't actually like the technique. I think it worked for Monroe because he was so good and his music relied on chop chords so much. But I only use chops as one tool in my toolkit, so it's something I can't employ consistently. I prefer to know where my scales are independent of my chords. I also think it's a technique that can keep a player focused on "pentatonic tricks" rather than the melody.

[AlanN]

With the full-force chop chord voicing, your left hand is in place to play a complete major scale, 8 notes, octave to octave, without shifting hand position or using open strings.

G major scale:

D string: 5 (with ring finger), 7 (pinky)
A string: 2 (index), 3 (middle), 5 (ring), 7 (pinky)
E string: 2 (index), 3 (middle)

Up and down, keeping fingers down on frets as you ascend. A wonderful exercise to advance fluidity, dexterity and strength.

[John Flynn]

Alan

Thanks for that. I just noticed my hand was in a pretty good position to play the G scale down to the open G also!

[bayAreaDude]

I think you are over thinking it. I think it means that when you know a certain chop chords fits here in the tune, you automatically have four notes that you know will work for an improve here in the tune. In any order. Its a good place to start.

Sounds like a simple arpeggio then.

[d18daddy]

Just received Niles Hakkansons Bluegrass up the neck and Andy B is correct. He teaches this subject in detail. Simple arpeggios, yes, but with added coloring scale degrees. Can't wait to dig in.

[UsuallyPickin]

Well ..... The chop chord can be jammed over as single tones or double stops. It can be extended to the pentatonic by adding two tones each a whole step from an arpeggio tone. The dominant seventh can be added by flatting the tonic by a whole tone. And of course you can slide into the third and the fifth tones using the chord form arpeggio......... So there it is 1-2-d3-3-d5-5-6-d7 .....natural 7's are cool in jazz but anathema in grass ......... which brings us back to Doh! I need another sip of coffee..... NH wrote well on the subject ... enjoy the book 1d8 ..... R/

[Toni Schula]

see #10
The "Home" section here is playing out of a C chop chord.
http://jazzmando.com/FFcP.pdf

It was then, when I realised the similarities of the G-shape chop chord and the 3rd finger FFcP ;-) Just use the chop chord for arpeggios and the FFcP for scale tones without breaking your fingers.... and put in some blue notes to spice things up to taste.

Bauzl

[SincereCorgi]

I would third (fourth?) Bluegrass Up The Neck. It explores ways of using a few different shapes in a very sensible way, with attention to what idioms give bluegrass mandolin its sound. One of the ways is to never use words like 'idiom'.