Old Time Music

[TheBlindBard]

Hey, all,
It's been quite a while since I've posted. I've been picking a lot and learning a bunch. I'm enjoying playing irish music a lot. my girlfriend enjoys it too, which is wonderful. I've gotten lots of practice and compliments when I play for people now.
My grandpa is getting me "nashville 30 mandolin classics. An album
I was reading a bit about old-time music and it sounds rather similar to irish music, and from what the album says, it's got lots of old-time music in it. I don't have the album, it's being mailed to me, but some of the sample tracks have peaked my interest. Is there any forum akin to thesession where I can find ABC's of old-time tunes and a forum to talk to people?
Thanks

[Beanzy]

We have a great forum section on here for Old Time which has had some really good threads on bands and resources, with many specifically focussed on how the mandolin fits in.

One permenant feature in my bookmarks is Old Time Mandolin Music which gets a regular visit. There is a section of "OTM Resources" which is great as a launch-pad for wandering.

As a resource for music I find it hard to beat Traditional Music Library specifically the sections under "AMERICANA - Folk, Traditional, Old Country Music & Song Collections" where there is a list of collections for "Old Time" music.

It's a wonderful collection of genres under the Old Time tent and there's a great collection of people who love to play this music. Enjoy the journey.

[Ryk Loske]

What Beanzy said.
I wasn't familiar with the Old Time Mandolin Music site but when i checked it out i was there for a long time. Great! Thanks Beanzy.

Ryk

[High Lonesome Valley]

I heard "Pig in a Pen" by a great old time group at a Bluegrass Festival in Salem County NJ (the same that Ricky Skaggs played at), went and bought a banjer, taught myself "Pig in a Pen" frailing style, and the rest is history.

Have great time in your musical research. Something about Old Time Music that can't be left behind.

[fatt-dad]

I know very little about ABC music format. I just want to say, you can also go to www.mandozine.com and search their tabedit files for, "Old-time" music. You'll need the free "Tabeditviewer" to open the files. I've learned a lot of old-time music using this resource.

f-d

[TheBlindBard]

I can't use tabs because I'm blind. If they are in text, I may be able to figure it out, but, if they are in pictures, there's no way.

[LongBlackVeil]

I can't use tabs because I'm blind. If they are in text, I may be able to figure it out, but, if they are in pictures, there's no way.

You really should learn to play by ear in that case. It's a skill that you have to practice like any other skill. Best to take an easy song and try to figure it out one note at a time.After you find the first note it starts to become pretty easy and normally there are certain patterns that songs follow. Especially old time songs, they often follow a call and response type structure.

Everytime you learn a song be ear, the next one becomes easier to figure out. It sort of adds to your vocabulary I guess

[TheBlindBard]

That's something I've been meaning to do for a long while, but never got around to it.

[John Flynn]

I can't use tabs because I'm blind. If they are in text, I may be able to figure it out, but, if they are in pictures, there's no way.

FYI, TablEdit will also play the tunes for learning by ear. Also be aware ABC notation is a text based notation system. Not many people actually read music in ABC directly, but I have heard it can be done. You can also export TablEdit files to ABC. If you have any kind of text to braille software, it might be an option.

[High Lonesome Valley]

I can't use tabs because I'm blind. If they are in text, I may be able to figure it out, but, if they are in pictures, there's no way.

I use an alternative tuning on my octave mandolin that works great with the old time and bluegrass music I play, it's all in the key of G.

It is G-D-g-d.

I know how to play regular mandolin chords and leads, but personally find this tuning to be more intuitive for old time stuff.

G is open, C is either a one or two fingered chord and so is D. All your leads are either open string, fourth and fifth fret for standard songs or open string, third and fifth fret for more bluesier renditions. Lead work is an absolute charm in this tuning and it really reflects a mountain dulcimer sound.

And it's easier to play "Pig in a Pen" with it than regular mandolin tuning, banjo or guitar. "Layla" doesn't come out too bad either.

[fatt-dad]

just to echo what John said. The computer rendition of Tabedit files is sufficient to inform your ear to mimic the tune. I play by ear more than anything.

f-d

[LongBlackVeil]

just to echo what John said. The computer rendition of Tabedit files is sufficient to inform your ear to mimic the tune. I play by ear more than anything.

f-d

Agreed, I actually found it easier to learn a tune by ear if I listened to the tabledit as opposed to listening to the actual song. The notes are like 8 bit or whatever you call it, so it's easier to hear the fundamental tones.

Now would be a good time to start learning by ear if your getting into old time. I don't think they had tabs when the old time fiddlers were doing it and you probably have a good ear given that you can't see (at least that's the stereotype, not sure if it's true or not)

[Jim Garber]

Well... you can learn the notes of a tune by ear from the midi file (that is what plays in Tabledit) but you will not be playing anything that resembles old time music. Much better to play some actual recordings thru slow down software (I use Amazing Slow Downer). Also, at some point you will have to expand from only listening to mandolin players. Tho there are some good mandolin players out there, the prime old time melody instrument is the fiddle. Sorry, you just can't avoid it.

[allenhopkins]

Can you get out and jam with old-time musicians? No better way to learn -- not just the tunes, but the best way to approach playing old-time mandolin.

Playing old-time music is much more than just learning the notes. An old-time jam can be a real education to musicians used to playing Celtic, bluegrass, blues, generic "folk," or pop/rock. Tunes seem to go on forever, the melody gets played over and over with little variation, the different instruments have pretty defined roles. Approach is really that of a band playing for people to dance, rather than each instrument taking a "break" as in a stage performance, or the typical Celtic "three times through the tune, then on to another tune" seisun format.

Figuring out how to learn the tunes from recordings or computer files definitely will be a challenge. But really getting a feel for the genre will probably mean getting into some live jams.

[TheBlindBard]

I'm still considering. I'm going to spend some time with this album my grandpa got me- it came today and I'm listening to it right now, lovely stuff.

[John Flynn]

BTW, I hope you are aware that one of the most famous old-time mandolinists of all time, the late Kenny Hall, was blind from birth. He was reported to have known over 3,000 old-time tunes by memory and he wrote some great OT tunes, like "Rainbow." His story is inspirational and worth reading up on.

[allenhopkins]

BTW, I hope you are aware that one of the most famous old-time mandolinists of all time, the late Kenny Hall, was blind from birth. He was reported to have known over 3,000 old-time tunes by memory and he wrote some great OT tunes, like "Rainbow." His story is inspirational and worth reading up on.

Here's Kenny playing Rainbow.



Blindbard, since you're only hearing the audio, let me mention that Hall played a bowl-bacck mandolin, which he held vertically on his knee, and he picked with his index fingernail, braced against his middle finger. The thumb of his picking hand generally rested on the fourth string course, unless he needed to pick up a note there. Unique technique, and amazing how strong and accurate his picking was, especially his tremolo.

I've not seen a single other mandolinist use a similar technique; anyone else?

[TheBlindBard]

I took from Kenny Hall's technique and used a method of bracing my index finger with my middle finger and my thumb for playing Irish music.
I haven't listened to much old-time music before but I'm really enjoying this album so far. What's mainly different about old-time music when compared to Irish music?
I'm familiar with the AABB, three times through the tune before switching off to another tune. I also am a bit familiar with ornaments, though I usually play things plainly and unornamented and use ornaments for variation and to add interest.
I play another version of whiskey before breakfast as a reel. I saw the version on the 30 mandolin classics album and I heard some similarities, but loads of differences.

[fatt-dad]

By all means, if you can, play with others! I like Tabedit files and such, but usually as a reference to something I heard at a jam. For many years, I wrote down the tunes at local jams.

I've learned tunes just from written music with no sound reference to go on. It's kind of fun.

I don't know the difference between Red-Haired Boy at an Irish or old-time jam. If I heard a difference, I'd just try to fit in. Gaining an ear to "fit into" ensemble play is another fun aspect of learning an instrument. Maybe you know this? I usually play old-time at jams. I am having fun working on Irish and Classical music at home. Just a journey.

f-d

[John Flynn]

I haven't listened to much old-time music before but I'm really enjoying this album so far. What's mainly different about old-time music when compared to Irish music?

The following are generalizations, not true in every case and I know some people will take issue with this, but it's been my observation:
1. Old-time tunes tend to be reels, waltzes, breakdowns, hornpipes, barn dances and schottisches. Jigs are very rare. When they are played, like "Stella's Jig" they don't tend to have that DUD, DUD accent that is signature for Irish jigs.
2. Irish tends to be played faster at sessions than Old-time is at jams, although this varies.
3. Irish Trad tends to be played with more ornamentation. Old-time ornamentation if done at all, is more subtle.
4. The instruments typically used in the two genres are obviously different. I find that it is harder to hear yourself and be heard on the mandolin in an Irish session with an equal number of players. Irish instruments like the pipes, concertina, accordion, tenor banjo and whistles can really put out some sound.
5. The repertoire is very different. Yes, there are tunes that overlap, but not many compared to the total number of common tunes in each genre.
6. The modes and resulting chord accompaniment for Irish is much more complex than Old-time and there is room for a lot of chordal improvisation in Irish. Old-time tunes typically have a minimum numbers of chords in a tune, they are more often in major keys. Minor chords and sevenths are used only in a minority of tunes and everyone pretty much plays the same chords at the same time throughout each repetition.

[Jim Garber]

Excellent overview, John. I can add a few things. In Irish sessions (never called jams, AFAIK) Irish tunes are usually played only 2 or 3 times each in a medley of two or three tunes and very often the medleys are established in a given session and always played that way and in that order. In OT jams, most tunes are played singly and multiple times, sometimes 10 times, sometimes even more to get that sort of "mantra" feel or groove.

Also, in general the irish tunes are notier and the OT tunes more bare-bones and rhythmic.

[JeffD]

Minor chords and sevenths are used only in a minority of tunes and everyone pretty much plays the same chords at the same time throughout each repetition.

Well there are a lot of modal tunes in OT, but you can usually find your way around pretty easily.

[High Lonesome Valley]

In OT jams, most tunes are played singly and multiple times, sometimes 10 times, sometimes even more to get that sort of "mantra" feel or groove.

And the name of the song is generally the same as three or four words used for the verse and the chorus.