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Thread: Casting tailpieces

  1. #1

    Default Casting tailpieces

    Anyone out there getting their own castings made? I'm looking for a reliable company to cast mine.

    Nigel
    http://www.nkforsterguitars.com/instruments/mandolin/

  2. #2
    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Casting tailpieces

    Nigel - There are 3 main methods of casting in common use - sand casting,'lost wax' casting & pressure die casting. In sand casting,you make a model of the item required to be cast & then from that you make a series of 'sand moulds' in which to cast the metal.The results can be very good,but sand cast items always have the possibility of air bubbles being trapped in the hot metal. Sand cast items usually require a lot of work to give them a good finish,as you can understand,the surface takes on the 'grain' of the sand,& it's not normally used for highly intricate work.
    The other method,pressure die casting,requires a high quality metal die to be manufactured into which the hot metal is forced under pressure. This results in a highly precise & accurately made item,with (usually) no internal defects such as bubbles, & also with a high degree of surface finish = not much finishing required other than polishing &/or plating. However,having a pressure die made,can be hugely expensive.
    Any decision re. 'which' method,has to be dependant on the cost of the process chosen, against that quantity / cost of the items.
    Personally i'd start by looking at the Lost wax method - these folks might offer some advice regarding LW casting or indeed,which method they'd go for :- http://www.abbeycasting.co.uk/,
    Re Lost wax' casting - a bit more is involved :-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost-wax_casting
    but for a company set up for it,it's like water off a Duck's back,
    Ivan
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  4. #3
    Resonate globally Pete Jenner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Casting tailpieces

    The cast body parts on that site are a bit scary Ivan.
    The more I learn, the less I know.

    Peter Jenner
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    Moderator JEStanek's Avatar
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    Default Re: Casting tailpieces

    You should talk with Brian Dean of Labraid he's cast many and John Hamlett.

    Jamie
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    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Casting tailpieces

    Jamie - Nigel Forster is UK based :- http://www.nkforsterguitars.com/ The addition of import duty & tax,plus liaison between buyer & producer would have their own problems. I'm fairly certain that a good look around on the 'net' will produce a number of possibilities.
    Peter - They might look a bit 'scary',but they also look to be of a very high quality,
    Ivan
    Weber F-5 'Fern'.
    Lebeda F-5 "Special".
    Stelling Bellflower BANJO
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    Ellis DeLuxe "A" style.

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    Resonate globally Pete Jenner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Casting tailpieces

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Kelsall View Post
    Peter - They might look a bit 'scary',but they also look to be of a very high quality,
    Ivan
    That's what is so scary about them Ivan.
    The more I learn, the less I know.

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  8. #7
    gary nava; luthier GarY Nava's Avatar
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    Default Re: Casting tailpieces

    Hi Nigel,
    It will be interesting to see how this pans out. I guess like me, you're a wee bit frustrated with what's currently available.
    Ivan's link looks very promising, maybe expensive too!
    If you want to get something made up, could you not get your current design CNC machined from flat sheet,?
    I like to be able to bend my tailpieces to the angle that I want, to suit a particular instrument and would worry about a casting breaking, hence using flat sheet brass on mine- but that's just me!
    Cheers Gary

  9. #8
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Casting tailpieces

    Quote Originally Posted by GarY Nava View Post
    ...I like to be able to bend my tailpieces to the angle that I want, to suit a particular instrument and would worry about a casting breaking, hence using flat sheet brass on mine...
    My original tailpieces were sheet brass and a few of them broke, hence cast bronze for mine.
    The few broken tailpieces, along with the freedom to incorporate the curves I originally intended for the design, are the very reasons I changed from formed to cast tailpieces. The newer ones are slightly heavier, but that's the way it goes...
    Mine will bend more than enough to accommodate different string angles, and in fact are flexible enough that they follow the string line without having to manually bend them, and there is no apparent danger of them breaking. No cast tailpieces of mine have failed in any way (so far...).

    Now, I'm waiting for 3D printing to be inexpensive enough to print my tailpieces! Perhaps in a few years...

    FWIW, mine are lost wax cast by Brian Dean. I don't think he is doing much of that anymore, and I'm working on another design modification, and I will probably be changing to having a local jeweler cast them for me while I wait for the economics of 3D printing to fall into line.

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  11. #9

    Default Re: Casting tailpieces

    Quote Originally Posted by GarY Nava View Post
    Hi Nigel,
    It will be interesting to see how this pans out. I guess like me, you're a wee bit frustrated with what's currently available.
    Ivan's link looks very promising, maybe expensive too!
    If you want to get something made up, could you not get your current design CNC machined from flat sheet,?
    I like to be able to bend my tailpieces to the angle that I want, to suit a particular instrument and would worry about a casting breaking, hence using flat sheet brass on mine- but that's just me!
    Cheers Gary

    Mine are CNC'd from flat brass just now but they snap too during bending. Heat helps though.

    No, I've an idea for a different design and flat brass won't work for it. I'm going to ask the UK company Ivan mentioned (thanks for that Ivan) and another one of my friends who is a Northumbrian pipe maker uses for casting his keys. If it's affordable I may well switch designs.

    Nigel
    http://www.nkforsterguitars.com/instruments/mandolin/

  12. #10
    gary nava; luthier GarY Nava's Avatar
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    Default Re: Casting tailpieces

    I'm surprised with reports of snapping; I use CZ108 which has good bending properties. I also make sure that the area around the bend is shaped to reduce the possibility of stress raisers leading to a breakage. Of course brass can also be annealed to increase its ductility. Works for me.
    Anyway good luck with the casting- be really interested to see the results
    Cheers Gary
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  14. #11
    Registered User Lefty Luthier's Avatar
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    Default Re: Casting tailpieces

    Brian Dean has been casting my custom designed tailpieces for a number of years and I have yet to have one break or be of less than excellent quality.
    Byron Spain, Builder
    www.theleftyluthier.com

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    Default Re: Casting tailpieces

    I had a couple of snappages after a few years, and have also repaired several brass trapeze tailpieces from old archtops. I really wanted to make my tailpieces in house, so I've stayed with sheet brass. I now use half-hard .045" sheet, bend it on the brake, then torch the bend to a yellow glow to anneal. This procedure is borrowed from the folks that spin brass. They spin the blank through increasingly tight curves, and when it starts to be springy and stiff they take it off the lathe and torch it before continuing. Quenching is not necessary for annealing, but cool it before you burn yourself! So far so good with this method.
    John

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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Casting tailpieces

    Some of the first tailpieces I made are holding up fine. I used "dead soft" brass, don't know the number designation, but it was supposed to be excellent for cold forming and finishing. On the early ones, I bent the main bend over a sharp, angled form. Later, I learned to use a proper bending radius, and later yet, I got the proper marker to indicate the temperature to anneal the bend. More of the later ones broke despite the bend radius and the annealing. I've only had to replace a handful, but more than one failure is too many, as I see it, so I changed them to cast.

  17. #14
    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Casting tailpieces

    As with most metals,there are variations in hardness & ductility in brass sheet.These are 'engineered in' for specific usage. For tailpieces of the type shown in Gary's excellent photos.,i'd choose a harder spec.& anneal it prior to forming. Also as Gary points out,any 'cut away' areas should be smooth,rounded & well polished to prevent crack propogation & the correct 'bend allowance' must be used. Brass can be bent to quite tight rads.after annealing,but at the expense of added stress even after being annealed. Nothing comes free !,
    Ivan
    Weber F-5 'Fern'.
    Lebeda F-5 "Special".
    Stelling Bellflower BANJO
    Tokai - 'Tele-alike'.
    Ellis DeLuxe "A" style.

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