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Thread: A stupid question, if you don't mind.

  1. #1

    Default A stupid question, if you don't mind.

    Hello my fellow mandolinists,

    What is the difference between an f model mandolin and an F5?
    I would assume there is a difference, otherwise all f models would be called F5's.

    While I'm at it I'll ask another question (or rather, ask for a recommendation) that will no doubt make most of you groan and/or roll your eyes.
    Im wanting to upgrade from my current mando (Loar LM600). I want to buy second hand but because I'm in Aus (bugger all choice here and I have been looking for over 12 months) I will probably have to buy one from the US.
    Can anyone recommend a shop over there that has a return policy if I needed it?
    The reason being is I will have to buy it without playing it first. I would just be gutted though if I paid 2 or 3 grand and it was a dud.

    I know people will think or say that I need to play it first. I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately I don't have that luxury though. I want to upgrade to something like a mid 90s Flatiron F5. But if I waited for something like that to pop up in Australia I'd likely be in my mid 90's too!

    Thanks all,

  2. #2

    Default

    I stand ready to be corrected here, but I think in general, it is an F model if it has the scroll. If it has f holes it is an F5, if it has an oval hole, it can be anything between an F2 and an F4 depending upon the level of "fancy-ness" - the more bling, the higher the number!
    Rob

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  4. #3
    Work in Progress Ed Goist's Avatar
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    Default Re: A stupid question, if you don't mind.

    Not at all stupid questions.

    The "F" (most likely standing for "Florentine") is the general style of mandolin body shape with the scroll. The numbers after the F are "model" numbers, and refer to specifications specific to the model (sound-hole type and appointments). For example, an F4 is an oval hole mandolin.

    Here is a good article from the Siminoff website that discusses this issue and lists some of the spec differences.

    Regarding vendors in the USA you might patronize, I'd begin by sending an e-mail to some of the Cafe Sponsors (listed in the right margin of the homepage).

    Hope this helps. Good luck!
    c.1965 Harmony Monterey H410 Mandolin
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    Registered User Nick Gellie's Avatar
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    Default Re: A stupid question, if you don't mind.

    Do you want an F5 with a flat or a radiused board, with a 11/8" or a 11/16" nut, with a v-shaped or rounded neck profile, with tone bars or X-bracing? What sort of tonewoods do you want? These all make a difference as to how a mandolin plays and sounds.

    I would get a second-hand F5 or equivalent from a member of the café. I have bought some great mandos from members of the café - they are a highly reputable mob IMHO. You need to do your research first before even thinking about a mandolin.
    Nic Gellie

  7. #5
    Registered User Nick Gellie's Avatar
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    Default Re: A stupid question, if you don't mind.

    This looks like a good mando. Might suit you.

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/125547...7645052280230/
    Nic Gellie

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    Registered User Bill Snyder's Avatar
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    Default Re: A stupid question, if you don't mind.

    Ed Goist says that F probably stands for Florentine but there is no reason to think that. The "F" designation came from Gibson. They gave a letter designation to just about all of their early instruments. For example the K-5 mandocello and H-5 mandola and of course the venerable A-4 mandolin. F was just part of the model #.
    Bill Snyder

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    Default Re: A stupid question, if you don't mind.

    It is not true that higher number F style models represent more "bling". Quite the opposite. When It was introduced the F 5 was top of the line. F style models introduced later had higher numbers but were often less expensive options. F-7s for a while had simpler appointments and a shorter neck joining the body at the 10th fret resulting in an odd looking bridge placement behind where we are used to seeing it. F-12s for a time had the cloud tailpiece instead of the engraved cover traditional style and a non elevated fretboard glued to the top. Of course it's hard to generalize because they did change specs through the years but generally speaking numbers higher than 5 were meant to be more affordable. And of course the modern F-9s are supposed to be bare bones entry level models.
    Don

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  12. #8
    Work in Progress Ed Goist's Avatar
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    Default Re: A stupid question, if you don't mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Snyder View Post
    Ed Goist says that F probably stands for Florentine but there is no reason to think that. The "F" designation came from Gibson. They gave a letter designation to just about all of their early instruments. For example the K-5 mandocello and H-5 mandola and of course the venerable A-4 mandolin. F was just part of the model #.
    Thanks Bill. If incorrect I stand corrected. Just as an FYI (and because it's good reading), here's my reference: "A Brief History of Gibson Mandolins" from vintagemandolin.com.

    "...It is said that these designations were short for "Artist" and "Florentine", but the names are confusing because they have been applied by the Gibson Co. and other makers to various other styles of mandolins. The letter designations, A and F, have been more consistently applied to the styles described..."
    c.1965 Harmony Monterey H410 Mandolin
    "What a long, strange trip it's been..." - Robert Hunter
    "Life is too important to be taken seriously." - Oscar Wilde
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  14. #9
    Registered User Bill Snyder's Avatar
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    Default Re: A stupid question, if you don't mind.

    Ed, I have seen this topic brought up several times on the Cafe. Arguments made for and against the Florentine designation. I just do not see the argument for Florentine being very compelling since no reference to Florentine being present in EARLY catalogs.
    Bill Snyder

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    Work in Progress Ed Goist's Avatar
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    Default Re: A stupid question, if you don't mind.

    Bill, you're probably right.

    My favorite theory on this subject is that the "A" in A-style may have referred to "almond" because of the body shape.

    If nothing else, "Florentine" for F and "Almond" for A make for fun mnemonic devices!
    c.1965 Harmony Monterey H410 Mandolin
    "What a long, strange trip it's been..." - Robert Hunter
    "Life is too important to be taken seriously." - Oscar Wilde
    Think Hippie Thoughts...
    Gear: The Current Cast of Characters

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  18. #11

    Default Re: A stupid question, if you don't mind.

    some helpful info above

    elderly instruments, fiddlers green the mandolin store, all come to mind
    or order a lower priced custom build from a maker
    -the shipping is likely prohibitive-I would try to use email and get and in hand and evaluation and go with it-or, seek out Mr Paul Duff, and save the shipping LOL

    for the most part, contemporary build "Fs" will all be F5 clones.

    heres what I suggest
    first you need to see what these mandos look like to help keep them straight-notice headstock inlay, and decorations.
    early Gibson mandos-like until around 1922, I believe, did not have an adjustable truss rod for the neck, afterward they did

    try this link and go to the right hand column, click on the different photos

    http://www.mandolinarchive.com/

    F2,

    F3 (not an official Gibson designation, as I understand it was the Artist, but a popular reference, the F3 was the original F style, but had one more point on the body, that is total of 3, and thus earned this designation, used to refer to an early three pointed version of the F style)

    http://www.vintageinstruments.com/mu...ptfulpage.html

    F4 -notice that the Gibson mandolins 2-4 designations have, a) an oval hole b) a neck that joins the body at the tenth fret
    generally speaking, and to help you get a grasp on the impact of these features, both of these factors give these mandolins a sound different that the F5 , with its f holes and longer neck (joins at 12th fret) . It is typically described as more tubby. Also the shorter neck slightly limits upper fret access compared to the longer F5 neck. Also, typically F style mandolins have the fingerboard extension, (over the soundboard) raised, which is supposed to help the top vibrate more freely and fully compared to thos mandolins where the fret board lies on top of the soundboard.

    F2-F4 types , with the shorter neck, while the F5 has a longer neck, and I believe both have a scale length of 14" (13 7/8 precisely I think). This difference has an impact on some factors such as attack and decay, neck angle I believe, as well as downward pressure on the soundboard (top). The longer necks are slightly harder to finger due to given any given gauge of string, slightly more string tension.


    F5s are, in essence, violin -like tech applied to the mandolin. F5 'types" ie F holes carved arch top and longer neck, tend to give a more mid upper mid range sound, and the ability to be distinctive or pronounced in sound and projection ('cut") in a group of other stringed instruments.

    F2-F4 types are most popular for Old time music and celtic, sometimes jazz and gypsy too. They have a more hollow, bassy, sound.

    Generally speaking, other than cosmetic appointments, or the above sound hole shape or neck, overall basic construction and materials and bracing are pretty much the same in older Gibsons, so the sound is in a very very broad sense similar. Whaqt im tyring to say here is that a 2 designation if pretty much like a 4, but for inlay and other things, like fancy binding, pick guard, etc.

    Generally speaking, A models of similar designations , ie A2, A4, A5, all have correlating sound to their F counterparts. Many here agree that there is little if any difference in the sound between A bodies and F bodies.

    I hope this helps you a bit in getting the lay of the land. Theres a bunch more to learn, but this should help you be able to understand the lingo.

    There are later Gibson models, varations of the F5, such as the F7, F10 and F12, which appear in the 30s and later. Search to find these rarer types.

    Finally, if you REALLY want to know more, I highly urge you to buy Tone Poems, a CD with a very informative booklet which will provide you with sounds (songs) of each style, played by a little known mandolinist David Grisman, and his friend Tony Rice, accompanying him on guitar. SPeding the 10-15 bucks for this will really help you perhaps more than any other small expenditure, imho, towards your knowledge of these styles..
    Last edited by stevedenver; Jul-23-2014 at 11:43am.

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  20. #12
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: A stupid question, if you don't mind.

    You can see pics of Gibson A-model and F-model mandolins at The Mandolin Archive, going back to the earliest years of the company. (NOTE: not all listings have pictures, but there are plenty of 'em.)

    1. I have found no evidence that "F" stood for "Florentine" when Orville G introduced it pre-1910. any more than "H" series mandolas or "K" series mandocelli had descriptive names associated with their initials. Gibson made designated "Florentine" banjos in the '20's and '30's -- interestingly adorned with pictures of Venice, not Florence -- and they called their EM-200 solid-body electric mandolin "Florentine" when they issued it in the '50's -- again interestingly, it was a two-point design and had no scroll.

    2. F-5 mandolins when they were first built were top of the line; they included Lloyd Loar's innovations of F-holes rather than oval soundholes, fingerboard raised off the top, and a longer neck that moved the bridge to near-center of the mandolin top. These features gave a nod to standard violin construction. There have been quite a few other Gibson F-models, and the scroll and body points are their characteristic features.

    3. It's current shorthand to call F-models with f-holes, raised fingerboards etc. "F-5's," and those with oval holes and flush fingerboards "F-4's," but that's just a descriptive convenience. There were Gibsons with f-holes and flush fingerboards, and now other luthiers are building oval-hole, raised fingerboard mandolins.

    4. Basically, the "F" (or "A") designation refers to body shape -- not to a descriptive adjective -- and other features are designated by the numerical suffix. Early F-models had an "extra" body point, and these preceded the introduction of the F-5, so there should be no "three-point F-5" mandolins around, but who knows? Someone may be building one now.
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  22. #13
    Loarcutus of MandoBorg DataNick's Avatar
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    Default Re: A stupid question, if you don't mind.

    Arutha,

    Being that you're "Down Under", you should contact cafe member Pete Jenner about a custom build...he'll do ya right!
    1994 Gibson F5L - Weber signed


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    Arutha 

  24. #14
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    Default Re: A stupid question, if you don't mind.

    F is the Genus , 4 & 5 are Species ..
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    is like dancing,
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  25. #15
    Registered User John Soper's Avatar
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    Default Re: A stupid question, if you don't mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by mandroid View Post
    F is the Genus , 4 & 5 are Species ..
    but some makers today are making hybrid offspring of F4's/F5's with longer necks, elevated finger boards and oval holes... kinda like a husky/wolf interspecies breeding...

  26. #16

    Default Re: A stupid question, if you don't mind.

    Hi Nick, thanks for your reply. Not sure is the short answer. I do like the sound of Engelman Spruce tonewood though. So perhaps a MT Collings or Northfield. I would also love to try out a Pava (not engelman but still has a great sound). Or a Flatiron.... I guess the search continues!

  27. #17
    Registered User Pasha Alden's Avatar
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    Default Re: A stupid question, if you don't mind.

    I bought my mandolin from Jeff Cowherd of Jbovier mandolins. I love these mandolins the set up is great. I did not play my mandolin before purchasing from the US, but I found the setup so good that there was no problem. Also found the café to give excellent advice. So similar to you we in SA have limited choice for mandolins. Very happy with my US purchase. Now saving for my mandola and will probably purchase from Max and Laurie next year.

    Playing:
    Jbovier a5 2013;
    Crafter M70E acoustic mandolin
    Jbovier F5 mandola 2016

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  29. #18
    Registered User Pasha Alden's Avatar
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    Default Re: A stupid question, if you don't mind.

    I have a Crafter A style mandolin. Or should I say ovation. Ovation with an oval sound hole. I always thought the sound holes make a difference in sound? To me the crafter sounds clear while the A5 Jbovier sound more focused. However, I thought they may be due to sound holes and choice of different kinds of spruce?

    Playing:
    Jbovier a5 2013;
    Crafter M70E acoustic mandolin
    Jbovier F5 mandola 2016

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