Digital Live Mixers

[foldedpath]

There's also the fact that do to a lot of different factors I'm not gigging much. So it's more idle curiosity than actual need. But that's how it always starts with EAS. So are you going to do the review on the Touchmix when it comes out foldedpath????

I don't know... I'm in a similar situation this year with fewer gigs than last year, partly due to the fact that my guitarist partner in our duo got married earlier this year. That has had a predictable influence on our rehearsal and gig schedule.


I'm curious about how the smaller 4 mic channel Touchmix might replace the Zed-10FX I use for minimalist wedding gigs, or when we need a "2nd Unit" setup with a PA in two different locations (ceremony area plus reception/dinner area). But I can't justify it, unless the gig schedule picks up. Maybe next year.

[almeriastrings]

One of the reviews I saw the guy complained the auto level didn't function like he'd hoped. But do you think that might have been because it was a rock band with huge level swings? Seemed like it worked for you. Or maybe it was and early model and they have tweeked it?

I must say I have (to date) found the auto-trim very accurate and reliable. The 'Trim Tracking' too. No problems. I will be giving it a real workout on Aug 16 when I am running the sound for an African drummer. That should give me a chance to test the noise gates, too. None of these things are 100% 'Auto Pilot' and obviously have limits - but so far, very good and all works just as I would expect. There have been software updates too, which have addressed some minor issues and added new features (fader mode, for example).

Those QSC desks look very interesting. Rather similar looking to the Stagescape, too, in overall design. It does make for a lot of capability in a very compact form-factor. I see initially, it does not have some things the M20D has: 12-channel feedback suppression, for example, and fewer options on the main outs - but as all this is done in DSP theoretically, it may come later as updates appear. That has been the case with the Behringer X-32. It also requires an external USB 3.0 hard drive (7,200 RPM) to record 20 tracks - while the M20D does this to an SDHC card. It looks very good though, and having worked now with one of the 'touchscreen' driven devices, once you adapt to them, they are a perfectly viable alternative to physical knobs and faders in most situations. I think a lot of us who were raised on "great big, very expensive heavy things covered in knobs and faders" have some initial reluctance to embrace this new approach (I certainly did), but it has proved something of a revelation..... I would not want to go back. The sheer sound quality and technical capability packed into such a compact unit, that you can easily carry with one hand (even in a flight case), is incredible. I am definitely a convert!

[TonyP]

All the pro's are converts too. But not every desk makes sense to everybody. It is still a new thing and it's going to change a lot more I'm sure. Just an overview of the QSC, the price looks less than the M20D, but good eye Al, no feedback buster.

I am totally wary of this smaller just to be smaller trend that's with everything. It makes every unit very proprietary in their approach and that means you can't just walk up and grab a knob, or tell somebody, grab that knob and turn it down! Granted you can't always do that now, but you could say the red slider or something like that for the mains.

It seems like the QSC is trying to keep it simple with the dedicated trims, but it sure would be nice if the #'s and the knobs were lighted so you can see them easily in dim light.

Ok, my interest is piqued, I'm going to keep an eye on digital mixers and track where this goes.

[almeriastrings]

One of the nice things on the M20D is that absolutely everything is back lit and illuminated. The mode buttons on the left, the 'mute' buttons on the right, and all the encoders. The latter change color according to function. Another big 'confusion buster' is the auto-sensing XLR's and jacks. This is something I had not encountered before, but it really makes a big difference in setting things up. Just plug in your XLR, and immediately it shows, highlighted on screen in the virtual patch-bay. If you want to re-assign it to another channel, just tough, hold, and drag. No need to physically unplug things and then plug them in again somewhere else. Super neat. Very clever. It is the sort of feature you never knew you needed, until you tried it. Used it all in near total darkness a few times now, and it is great in dingy environments. No struggling to read scribble strips and no uncertainty as to what is muted or what FX are active. That was always an issue on our little Soundcraft FX8 (not so much on the MFXi12). I'll probably hang onto the MFXi12 as backup, or for use as a sub-mixer. Subjectively, I think the M20D easily sounds as good as the Soundcrafts - and they always sounded more than good enough.

[TonyP]

ok, now you're killin' me......

I have to admit I'd only scanned the previous posts but you've got me so impressed went back and looked through. Not only does it do all the cool stuff, but also is a recorder. Now I'm totally blown away. A $1500 price tag doesn't seem that outrageous.

I guess it's all about how it holds up now, and support.

I didn't see where you've done any recording with it yet, so I look fwd to that. I'm also interested to see what if anything happens with your interface with the iPad and whether they are going to support any of the other pads as I've been instructed by my best half we need a pad. I can see where it would get used especially on the road. But I'm also seeing that there's some folks bailing on the iPad to go to the Samsung pad pro. All these choices, tech and the volume of online reviews and swamp an old wanna be nerd.

[foldedpath]

I have to admit I'd only scanned the previous posts but you've got me so impressed went back and looked through. Not only does it do all the cool stuff, but also is a recorder. Now I'm totally blown away. A $1500 price tag doesn't seem that outrageous.

FYI, The new QSC mixers will record too. I haven't looked at the details of the Line6 or QSC recording features, but the usual setup is one mono WAV file per mic input (stereo or dual mono for stereo line inputs), and the recording is usually pre-EQ, pre-FX, and pre-Fader. In other words, a raw capture of the signal right after the input trim. A raw, unprocessed capture is what you'd normally want if you're going to do a mixdown later on in a computer. Depending on the design, it might also record the stereo mix on the main outputs, which is what you'd want if you're burning CD's or USB sticks for sale at the gig.

One other thing about a recording feature with these mixers: Don't underestimate how much time it will take, to assemble and edit tracks if you do a multi-track recording of each gig. Be careful about promising recordings to anyone in the band, or a band you're running sound for, because it's a lot of work, unless you're just doing a simple 2-channel capture of the main stereo buss during the gig.

I guess it's all about how it holds up now, and support.

Definitely, although so far I haven't heard anything negative about the Line6 mixer, and the QSC isn't out yet. Support from both Line6/Yamaha and QSC should be good, based on past experience with those product lines.

I'm also interested to see what if anything happens with your interface with the iPad and whether they are going to support any of the other pads as I've been instructed by my best half we need a pad. I can see where it would get used especially on the road. But I'm also seeing that there's some folks bailing on the iPad to go to the Samsung pad pro. All these choices, tech and the volume of online reviews and swamp an old wanna be nerd.

I wouldn't advise getting anything but an iPad, if you're planning on using it with one of these digital mixers. Support for anything else is either nonexistent or shaky at best, and it's liable to remain that way, as long as Apple dominates the touch panel market. Get the full size iPad if you can, since that's easier to use. Especially if, like me, your near-range vision isn't what it used to be.

If you're on a budget, you can get a refurbished iPad2 from Apple that should work fine with these mixers. They're running about $300 now for the WiFi/non-cellular version. That's what I'm using (bought an 1Pad2 back when it was the new thing). I don't have a digital mixer yet, but I use it as a control interface for my RME UFX recording interface when it's in standalone mode. I'm not a fan of Apple in general, but I have to admit that iPads rock.

[almeriastrings]

I aim to test the recording capabilities sometime over the next week or two. Yes, it records a separate file for each input and a processed stereo 'mix' simultaneously, up to 20 channels. They are in 24bit uncompressed WAV format. The only 'oddity' is that they are sampled at 48kHz, so you may need to convert on import to your DAW if you usually work in 44.1

The options are:

Record inputs only
Record inputs and main mix
Record main mix only

It will also 'stream' the above to a Mac or PC if required.

The only real limitation is it does not do overdubbing. It really is aimed at the 'live show' capture function.

[Charlieshafer]

As everyone seems to agree, there's a lot of non-standardization at this point. Folded's point about the ipad has validity, but the other way of looking at is that the software for an individual manufacturer's controllers is easy to update with a simple download. Compatibility wouldn't be an ipad issue, just a software update issue. As far as the connectors go, there's a converter for everything. By the time something's completely outdated, you'd probably be looking at a whole new series of mixers that are a giant step ahead of what's out there now. But then, that's a problem with digital anything; there's no predictability of what's coming.

I do worry about the interface with all sorts of different control panels on these. Right now, my 15-year old daughter can easily run an analogue board with me wandering around telling her which way to go with what volume or eq setting for what channel. From what it sounds like, the advocates of different digital boards all seem to like the interfaces that mimic analogue controls, as that's what we're all used to.

I'm thinking in 5 years, the controller will be a little remote control you hold in your hand, point at the various musicians, and just adjust that channel. Point it at another, and it adjusts his or her channel. All wi-fi. The board itself will just be some little box that sits on the stage with the inputs going into it, and that's that. That seems to be the way that things are headed with a remote ipad controller, so my bet is that they'll all head in that direction if they're not already there.

Like Apple or not, that's the ballgame for the forseable future.

[TonyP]

I'm thinking in 5 years, the controller will be a little remote control you hold in your hand, point at the various musicians, and just adjust that channel. Point it at another, and it adjusts his or her channel. All wi-fi.

NOOOOOooooooooo........(as I think about trying to control the stupid tv, roku, dvd player with these glitchy remotes!) geez, I hope not. But you are right Charles, anything could happen. But there's the idea, and then there's the application/reality. So far the one - I see with the M20D is not being about to do any over dubs. I mean, how sweet would that be, you only have to learn one interface to do sound and record. But I know Apple seems to own everything, but they also have the penchant for selling you the base item, then socking it to you for all the add ons.

I wonder if they will re think this no over dub, wouldn't it just be software?

[almeriastrings]

I agree it would be nice.... and I am sure the basics could be done in the software, however, from some discussions I've had with them they have said they specifically avoided trying to be everything to everyone, and preferred to concentrate 100% on getting the live mixer functions right. Trying to achieve an ultra-low latency audio interface or overdub function at the same time would have involved changes elsewhere that would compromise other areas. 20 simultaneous track recording is quite a handful...That said... there is a lot of DSP in this thing and you never know what future software updates might bring. As it stands, you can import the files to say, Auria, on an iPad or send them to your usual main DAW where you can make use of your existing interface for any overdubs. Right now, the existing inbuilt recording functions already exceed that of say, the A&H ICE 16, but without all the extra cables and without the $1K additional price tag.

http://www.allen-heath.com/ahproducts/ice-16/

It is not so long ago that "hard disk recorders" seemed a miracle in their own right, and cost a fortune. We now have 20 track recording to a minuscule SDHC card that costs $20. Yes, you have to wonder what is coming next! Look what has happened to film cameras...

[Charlieshafer]

I can only say for myself that recording the live performances are not a priority, so any feature pertaining to that is simply unnecessary. For those who want a great live recording to play back, it'll need processing anyway, as there's no such thing as a perfect feed coming out of a live mixer. We all mess with the eq or levels to make it sound right for the room or space, but that signal into a computer will be totally unlistenable if not re-balanced. In that case, anything more than just sticking a thumb drive into the board is kind of overkill for most of us.

And, if the recording off the board is ready-to-go, I face one of two issues: if it's one of our shows I'm mixing for a touring band, recording shows is strictly off-limits, and a real no-no. The idea that a bootleg could get out is a venue-killer. If it's just us that's playing and even if we're really "on," I have no interest in listening to us, and to be brutally honest, I can't imagine anyone wanting to "re-experience the magic" of us...

[almeriastrings]

I feel the recording is a very useful addition, but is not the primary focus of the desk. I can see how some folks would find it important - others less so. Since it's there, and does not take anything away - nice to have "for free", as it were.

One way it would be useful to me is for soundchecks. There is an inbuilt 20 second 'quick record', where you grab 20 seconds of all active sources and it loops the playback while you tweak the EQ and such via Ipad from the audience position. Already used that and it was very revealing and helpful indeed. A full recording of a few minutes length is even better, however, and allows you to hear the breaks and everything in context. This could be quite a time saver as you could have extended 'samples' from artists you work with regularly, and do quite a significant percentage of the soundcheck and setup without needing anyone on stage at all. Provided your mics and general setup are the same each time, apart from room adjustments and getting any feedback issues resolved, that would get you in the ballpark really fast.

[TonyP]

I'm trying to envisage how that would work when you can save your settings from a previous gig. In my case the only artists I work with are my bands. Is it pretty quick and easy to record and then play back? The idea of being able to tweek like you said, recording the sound check, then tweeking it again from the audience would be a dream come true. Like you said though, 20 sec. is too short, it doesn't give enough time to run through the different breaks and voices that a couple of songs would. You also said it records everything dry, but it plays back through all the settings for fx etc. right? I'm getting a better pic of why they did the record setup like they did. You said your in communication with the manufacturer? that's interesting.

[mandotim1955]

I've recorded our 'soundcheck track' via the X32 into Reaper software on a laptop. The recording was done when we all pronounced ourselves happy with a rough 2-track playback of the song. We then played the song again, and recorded in full 'dry' DAW mode, using 12 tracks. If I'm short of time, or the boys are arriving late, I can simply play the dry soundcheck file through the X32 (which has the FX settings, levels, EQ and dynamics etc. already dialled in), and go out front with the iPad and listen/tweak. I can then EQ for the room on the mains and any 'problem' channels, job done.

[almeriastrings]

That's exactly how it works. With the M20D you record any required inputs to the SDHC card. These are dry recordings. Exactly the same as a 'direct out' on an analog mixer. You then play them back, but this time, they go through the EQ/FX chains for the respective channels. You have a soundcheck - but with an infinitely patient, fully co-operative band

Not something you'd necessarily need or use all the time, but it is there when you do. If you work regularly with different artists, you can store all their I/O settings, FX settings and other preferences in the Setup/Scene files, plus a 'virtual sound check'.

I had a few tech questions and they were answered very promptly by specialists at Line 6. They seem to know their stuff.

[TonyP]

It sounds almost too good to be true. My problem with a single person check is they have a tendency to sandbag and be timid. And then as soon as we a playing for real, well, I might have well not bothered. I think I'd have a tendency to maybe somehow push record about half way through the first set and go with that sample. How hard is it to switch into record?

[mandroid]

seen bands where one player is running a wireless transmitter (electric guitar, in a local case)

and walks out in front while they are playing to get the FOH sound double check.

[Charlieshafer]

That happens a lot with us. Usually after I get it pretty darn close, various members of the band will walk out while others are playing and give a listen, and then take turns. If there's any adjustment at all, it's usually just a slight adjustment to an eq, maybe drop the mids on someone's fiddle or something small. Usually they're just doing that to sound official, but every now and then it makes a little sense. Until the audience fills in, the show starts, and it ends up needing to be out pack where it was.

Almeria, I'm curious about the presets. Do you end up tweaking them when you get to different rooms, and just use it as a base check?

[pit lenz]

It sounds almost too good to be true.

In most cases it IS too good to be true.
Virtual Soundcheck (in most situations except a large open air gig) leaves two essential factors out of the equation:

-mixes are not right in small venues:
Any instrument with a robust level (drums, guitar amps, banjos or similar) will be heard acoustically when played by a musician but not during virtual check. Their acoustic presence might require complete different levels and tonal balance in the mix, since PA levels and frequency balance have to complement their own sound and volume.
Listen to a two track mixer recording from a small venue: you'll likely find that loud drums and amps are underrepresented in the mix or sound rather thin, since maybe only a small amount of presence was neccessary to add to the original acoustic stage sound during the gig. In this case Virtual soundcheck works best on soft or electronic instruments.

- Feedback won't happen in V.S.
Since you feed the PA and monitors from a virtual source and mics are off in that situation, the interaction between speakers an mics is eliminated during V.S.
This makes it hard to dial in very soft signal sources and be feedback safe later on.

Healthy signal sources in an open air situation (think Linkin Park) will really benefit from Virtual Soundcheck, in any other case you have to be careful about your mix judgements.

[almeriastrings]

-mixes are not right in small venues:
Any instrument with a robust level (drums, guitar amps, banjos or similar) will be heard acoustically when played by a musician but not during virtual check. Their acoustic presence might require complete different levels and tonal balance in the mix, since PA levels and frequency balance have to complement their own sound and volume.

I am a bit confused by this. The 'virtual check' recording takes place exactly like a regular sound check, in the same venue. So, the same conditions apply. No difference. Any spill will be recorded, the 'acoustic presence' is still there. The room acoustics are identical. It is absolutely no different than having the musicians present. The only 'serious' drawbacks that I can really point to are (as mentioned above) the tendency of some players to play at lower levels during sound checks than during the 'excitement' of a live show, and also the fact that the audience (mobile sound absorbers) are not there which affects the room - but that's just the same as any sound check, and you have to take all that into account. The 'trim tracking' feature on the M20D is also useful in dealing with musicians who increase levels as the night goes on. It cuts input trim to avoid clipping and adjusts the channel gain to keep the level to where it was set earlier. You can, of course, over-ride this if you want to.

Listen to a two track mixer recording from a small venue: you'll likely find that loud drums and amps are underrepresented in the mix or sound rather thin, since maybe only a small amount of presence was neccessary to add to the original acoustic stage sound during the gig. In this case Virtual soundcheck works best on soft or electronic instruments.

Not my finding at all. We are not dealing with a two track mix, but essentially a 'dry' input of the actual microphones. Let's say you have a fiddle + guitar on stage. Position the mics as usual - do a basic setup, then hit 'quick record' (which on the M20D you can do by pushing one button (on the desk or via iPad) or by floor switch. Musicians leave stage and come down to the mixer or out in the hall. Now, it sounds exactly like they were still there. Absolutely zero audible difference. You can now tweak the EQ, reverb, or gain... individually, for each mic. You can save those settings. Later, they go on to perform and it sounds exactly like it did during the sound check, and exactly like the recording. Obviously you may need to change some things as you go, just as on an analog desk, mainly due to audience damping effects, but that is just the same as it has always been.

- Feedback won't happen in V.S.
Since you feed the PA and monitors from a virtual source and mics are off in that situation, the interaction between speakers an mics is eliminated during V.S.
This makes it hard to dial in very soft signal sources and be feedback safe later on.

Not at all. If there are feedback issues these are picked up during the initial setup stage of the virtual soundcheck, when you have the musicians on stage. You get that resolved then. Also, many of these desks incorporate dynamic and adaptive anti-feedback systems that will kick in if a problem arises at any time. Most of the time, though, you simply do your anti-feedback checks and adjustments before you record the 'virtual' soundcheck. Remember... you use a separate 'virtual sound check' for each venue - so everything is tested and dialed in specific to that artist, and that venue. You can save all these and recall them any time. No-one is suggesting they are a total solution to every possible problem, but what they do (very well) is reduce a lot of repetition and save a lot of setup time. They also allow the performer to hear themselves from the audience position to 'tweak', balance or EQ. If you are running your own sound, this is quite simply fantastic. You can hear yourself like never before. In my opinion, this is a huge step forward.

Healthy signal sources in an open air situation (think Linkin Park) will really benefit from Virtual Soundcheck, in any other case you have to be careful about your mix judgements.

Again, I do not really understand where the problem is. What is the difference between recording say, 3 minutes of the band playing, then getting the band off-stage and then using a very high quality multi-track playback to continue refining the mix? You have mentioned feedback, that is already dealt with. What other difference is there? I certainly cannot hear any.

[almeriastrings]

Almeria, I'm curious about the presets. Do you end up tweaking them when you get to different rooms, and just use it as a base check?

As you go along, you refine them to specific venues and then save them. You can give them easy to remember names, and then re-load them the next time you have that act, in that venue. So, over time, theoretically, they should keep on getting better. I believe most of the digital desks out there offer this kind of facility. This is one of the big advantages, the ability to 'fine tune' settings for specific artists and specific venues, then recall them with 100% accuracy at the push of a button (or touchscreen). It massively reduces the repetition involved, and you don't have to remember how you had the EQ on the bass in 'Joe's Bar', because the desk remembers it for you. Anytime you want to change it, or adjust it, of course, you can, but it gets you in the ballpark, really, really quickly.

[adkpiper]

We* carry a Mackie DL1608 and it has been an absolute godsend so far. We're typically playing gigs where the sound is usually run by kind volunteers who may or not have read/received/heard of our tech rider and where the house board frequently doesn't have enough inputs to match the number of mics we're using. So the bar has been set pretty low. Often we would get to the gig and end up doing sound ourselves, with their gear, because the person who'd been assigned to do sound that month hadn't been taught how to set up and run the board.

Within that context, the DL1608 has been fabulous. Peter and I can both run iPads concurrently and get things dialed in, mix from out in the hall and/or on-stage, and fix things quickly from the stage if something goes wonky during the show. We had a problem during one gig with "knob twiddlers", the kind of audience members who think it's their right to come and adjust the board without asking. That's always an issue if you have those people around, but with the Mackie board the only knobs to twiddle are gain. Insta-feedback. But that's not a problem with the board's design! For us, the benefits vastly outweigh any disadvantages.

Haven't had any issues with power conditioning, software hiccups, etc., knock on wood! We don't carry a backup.

It's phenomenal to be able to carry a board that can handle our 13 XLR inputs with preamps, plus a dance caller on an extra mic, with room for other guests on stage. To be able to fit it into a backpack is mind-blowing.



*We are Frost and Fire. Celtic-inspired contra dance and songs, based in Vermont. www.frostandfireband.com
To give you a sense of what we need in a board:
Hollis (me):
- wooden flute = clip-on XLR + phantom
- guitar = DI -> XLR
- mandolin = clip-on XLR + phantom
- bagpipes + whistle + voice = stand-mounted SM57 = XLR

Peter:
- fiddle = clip-on XLR
- low whistle + voice = stand-mounted SM57 = XLR

Viveka:
- fiddle = clip-on XLR
- djembe + bodhran = stand-mounted SM57 = XLR

Aaron:
- piano = 1 or 2 TRS
- concertina = 2 clip-on XLR + phantom
- banjo = 1 clip-on XLR + phantom
- feet = stand-mounted SM57 = XLR
- voice = stand-mounted SM57 = XLR
- (sometimes Aaron's nyckelharpa shows up, which is another XLR)

[foldedpath]

Again, I do not really understand where the problem is. What is the difference between recording say, 3 minutes of the band playing, then getting the band off-stage and then using a very high quality multi-track playback to continue refining the mix?

I think the key part of Pit's post was this:

-mixes are not right in small venues:
Any instrument with a robust level

Take a small venue like a corner stage in a bar with a low ceiling. Add one Classic Rock cover band with a drummer who slams, and a lead guitar player with his amp dialed to 11 because that's the only way he gets his tone, man!

A recording of just the input to your mics and line inputs won't help in that situation, because the goal will be to bring up the vocals and any other quieter elements to match the drums and guitar, which don't really need the PA anyway. It's the classic case of having the club owner walk over to your FOH mix location, and he asks you to turn the band down because it's too loud; customers are complaining. You point to the master fader, pull it all the way down, and the band is just as loud. And you say "Talk to the guitar player."


An intrinsically quieter group like a Bluegrass, "Celtic" or Acoustic Folk band will be different, obviously, and so will mixing just about anything including loud Rock bands outdoors. There may also be intermediate situations where the band isn't louder than the PA reinforcement, but it's contributing some acoustic sound from amps and drums that has to be considered part of the mix. Again, this is mostly an indoor thing for rooms with lousy acoustics, but some of these digital mixers will inevitably be used in situations like that.

[TonyP]

That's exactly my take on it too FP.

This is why I find the whole thing of new products so hard to decipher because we truly are from a parallel universe. I would HATE to be somebody like Line 6 or Mackie etc. trying to figure out what exactly is the need. What we need is not something that's geared for rockers in an small club. And because of Al's mandocentric/acousticentric review I get so much more an insight into this gear that there's no way I'm going to get from the promo stuff or from the reviews. 99.99999% of the time the reviews on products are not people in my universe. So their ding on something might be my ecstasy. So I'm always having to read between the lines to see if we're talking apples to apples, or apples to oranges.

Add to this we are definitely in the minority in our needs and approach and it blows me away that you can get any manufacturer to care, much less pay attention.

[Charlieshafer]

Well, there are some things that are hard to solve no matter whether it's digital or analogue. No doubt acoustic mixes are a lot more delicate. Our bane is when a band is all acoustic save for one electric guitar or bass with an amplifier. We solved that issue by taking the amp off the stage, sticking it in the hallway in the back, and running their cord and a microphone out to it. Very few whine about the arrangement, most get why we do it that way. It's the only way we can balance the mix and keep the volume at decent levels.

Our main issue is that the first few rows are so close to the musicians, they really don't need any reinforcement, so the speakers for the house are suspended overhead up by the ceiling and we mix for the center of the room. We can get crystal clear, noise-free sound that way. As I need to set the board up for every show, the real draw for me is the light weight, and the move-around-the room during the show i-pad control.

I do suppose I'll end up recording a few bootlegs for my own enjoyment, though...