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Thread: Treble ornaments in reels

  1. #1

    Default Treble ornaments in reels

    If a section of a reel goes say (using abc notation) F2 AA or FF AA, I think it would normally be fine to substitute a treble ornament (triplet on a single note) say (3FFF AA or even (3FFF (3AAA

    But if the tune goes something like FAAF, I think the ornament wouldn't sound right i.e. F (3AAA F, because the ornament starts on the second beat, rather than the strong first or 3rd beat.

    My question is are there any other ways to embellish this phrase that would sound OK?
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    Default Re: Treble ornaments in reels

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Floorstand View Post
    ... if the tune goes something like FAAF, I think the ornament wouldn't sound right i.e. F (3AAA F, because the ornament starts on the second beat, rather than the strong first or 3rd beat
    I agree with your observation - at least, I couldn't make it sound right

    ... are there any other ways to embellish this phrase that would sound OK?
    There are ways of using trebles in that phrase. I might play it:
    (3FFA AF or FA (3AAF

    You could also play it:
    (3FAA AF or FA (3AFF

    An alternative to a treble would be a cut separating the two As - i.e. pulling off from the note above:
    FA{B}AF

    Depending on the flow of the tune (it is hard to judge with just 4 notes to go on), you might be able vary the notes a little instead of (or in combination with) adding ornaments:
    F2AF
    F3F
    F3A
    FAA2
    FGAF
    FBAF
    FDAF
    FdAF


    Any of the above examples can, of course, be further embellished with trebles or similar,
    e.g.
    (3FFF AF
    (3FGF AF
    FF (3AAF ...


    I hope this helps.

    ***UPDATE***

    I realised a couple of things about what I wrote:

    1. The first four examples involve playing trebles across two strings, which is tricky and not something I do very often. This is not a reason not to do it, but it would take a bit more work.
    2. I was assuming throughout that the F was actually an F#. Some of the melodic variations might not work very well for F-natural.
    Last edited by whistler; Apr-16-2014 at 7:26am.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Treble ornaments in reels

    Thanks that helps a lot Whistler. Guess what I'm going to be practising tonight

    I was reading about cuts recently, I believe FA{c}AF and FA{d}AF are possible as well as FA{B}AF, though I don't have a mandolin in front of me to see what they sound like.

    cheers
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    Default Re: Treble ornaments in reels

    Yes - lots of possibilities. I didn't dwell on cuts because I don't do them much on mandolin - not in reels, anyway.

    What part of London are you in? I'm in Ealing at the time of writing.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Treble ornaments in reels

    I wouldn't play treble ornaments for those notes, no more than I'd play trebles for two consecutive quarter notes (I'd alternately treble them on separate passes). You shouldn't treble every place you can... a little goes a long way...

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Treble ornaments in reels

    Here's a good clear explanation on how to play rolls:

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  8. #7

    Default Re: Treble ornaments in reels

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    Here's a good clear explanation on how to play rolls:
    Thanks Jim, I was listening to Killarney Boys of Pleasure recently. Not sure I'm ready to roll on the mando yet though!
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  9. #8

    Default Re: Treble ornaments in reels

    Quote Originally Posted by whistler View Post
    What part of London are you in? I'm in Ealing at the time of writing.
    I live in N8. I'm hoping to be in N4 on Friday night though - there's a session in Finsbury Park I've been meaning to get to for a while now, and at the moment it looks like I may be able to go...
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    Default Re: Treble ornaments in reels

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Sheehy View Post
    You shouldn't treble every place you can... a little goes a long way...
    Hear hear! I hope my post did not appear to suggest that trebles should be used at every opportunity. I find that a few melodic 'microvariations', shifts in accent and phrasing eliminate the need for lots of ornamentation. A little goes a long way, indeed.

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    Default Re: Treble ornaments in reels

    Never mind that rolls aren't triplets, but that fiddle video on rolls doesn't match much of anything I've ever heard from a host of great Irish fiddlers, especially the timing. Short rolls don't leave out the first root note--it's just shortened so the whole roll fits in the space of a quarter note. (A long roll covers a dotted quarter.)

    One option for triplets on a phrase like FAAF would be FA A/A/F. More commonly used, perhaps, on similar phrases that don't involve string crossings (e.g., ABBA = AB B/B/A), but the better players aren't impeded by string crossings in their triplets.
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    Default Re: Treble ornaments in reels

    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Lonelyhearts View Post
    rolls aren't triplets
    True. To be fair, the OP did ask about ways to embellish, not only about triplets/trebles. I didn't bring up rolls because I don't do them on mandolin (I don't think many players do) - they're very difficult to execute on the mandolin in a way that recreates their sound and rhythmic impact on the fiddle or wind instruments. But no, the tutorial isn't the best - it would have been more useful if she had played through phrases of the tune at a slow to moderate pace, demonstrating each of the ornaments, then played the whole tune at a realistic tempo (instead of slow and mushy), to show what they're meant to sound like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Lonelyhearts View Post
    Short rolls don't leave out the first root note--it's just shortened so the whole roll fits in the space of a quarter note. (A long roll covers a dotted quarter.)
    I think many would disagree with that. What you describe is a long roll, crammed into a shorter space of time. I am not doubting its effectiveness or its authenticity, but certainly, what flute and whistle players call a short roll does leave out the first root note.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Lonelyhearts View Post
    One option for triplets on a phrase like FAAF would be .
    What you describe here is effectively the same as FA (3AAF that I suggested above. Of course, it is not actually played as a real triplet (3 evenly spaced notes) and your notation FA A/A/F is closer to the mark in terms of timing




    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Lonelyhearts View Post
    More commonly used, perhaps, on similar phrases that don't involve string crossings (e.g., ABBA = AB B/B/A), but the better players aren't impeded by string crossings in their triplets.
    I'm not one of the better players

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    Default Re: Treble ornaments in reels

    Quote Originally Posted by whistler View Post
    But no, the tutorial isn't the best - it would have been more useful if she had played through phrases of the tune at a slow to moderate pace, demonstrating each of the ornaments, then played the whole tune at a realistic tempo (instead of slow and mushy), to show what they're meant to sound like.
    Sorry to post that video... I should have watched that more carefully before posting. Any good recommendations for better videos teaching these ornaments. I have no problems, at least as a moderate tempo playing the equivalent of a bow triplet on a mandolin -- meaning fast alternate picking on the same note as an ornament. It is interesting what ornaments do work for this music on a mandolin.

    The roll is similar to a baroque/classical turn (I think that is the right term) but that is usually played with all the notes picked -- near impossible otherwise with the lack of sustain of a mandolin. I know the effect may not be the same, tho.
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    Default Re: Treble ornaments in reels

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    The roll is similar to a baroque/classical turn
    Similar in terms of the notes but, crucially, the timing is different: in a turn, all the notes are of more or less equal duration; in a roll, the only pitch you actually hear is the root note, the others ('cut' and 'tap') being so short that they have the effect of just interrupting the root note.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    usually played with all the notes picked -- near impossible otherwise with the lack of sustain of a mandolin.
    Personally, I couldn't pick fast or accurately enough to reproduce the timing of a roll on fiddle, but even if I could, I doubt it would sound like a roll. A few players (including Roger Landes and the late John McGann) have managed to reproduce rolls effectively with a combination of picking, pulling off and hammering on. This thread http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ighlight=rolls discusses them.

  15. #14

    Default Re: Treble ornaments in reels

    I usually put them on the 2nd quarter note in a bar

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Treble ornaments in reels

    I will certainly admit that I am not deeply knowledgeable about any of this but checking out a few youtube videos plus the Kevin Burke video I have, I figured out that the effect you want is almost a short percussive one (for the roll).

    Spent a good deal of time trying it on the fiddle with the Kevin Burke video but he still plays it very fast. I replayed 5 or 6 times but still could not get the essence of it -- even just understanding what he was doing. Any recommended videos or explanations on how to do it right?

    I will prob post on a fiddle board for the roll anyway -- makes more sense.
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    Default Re: Fiddle rolls

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    Any recommended videos or explanations on how to do it (play a roll - ed.) right?
    I haven't used YouTube tutorials much, so I don't really know what is out there. This one, by Ian Walsh, seems good to me. It's only a snippet of the whole tutorial (He gives online tutorials for a living, so it's just a free taster.) and it's not specifically about rolls, but it does include a pretty good illustration of how to play a roll, in isolation and in context. No wordiness or information overload - just good playing and good camerawork. It's the way I'd teach it, if I were a good enough fiddler .



    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    I will prob post on a fiddle board for the roll anyway
    If you search http://thesession.org/discussions , you should find a lot of material relating to fiddle rolls.

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    Default Re: Treble ornaments in reels

    That is one I was looking at. He does the whole tune for $8.95.

    I also watched this one. I think the approach is a little different tho.

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    Default Re: Treble ornaments in reels

    That's good too, Jim. It seems to be geared towards people with some classical violin experience, but nice, clear explanations of bowing.

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